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Does the Libertarian View Go Too Far?

Home - by - January 1, 2013 - 00:41 America/New_York - 47 Comments

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Drunk Driving

Many people are troubled by the expanse of the state in the enforcement of laws against driving under the influence of alcohol. There seems to be something wrong with this picture for a number of reasons. The law is arbitrary and shifts with the political season. The perpetrators can’t really be sure if they are over or under the limit. And we all have vast experience with people who drink surprising amounts of liquor and drive all the time, but never get in accidents and do not seem to be driving in an unsafe way.

Then there are the frequent cases in which cops arrest people for DUI who are stopped for something else, like a burned-out tail light. I’ve known of people who have been arrested in their own driveways, having gotten home safely and harmed no one. They are arrested and imprisoned, a humiliating and terrible experience for anyone to go through.

Clearly, this DUI enforcement has been a boon to the police but has it really curbed drunk driving? You might consider staking out your local bar, following how much people drink, and observing how many get in cars after. I’ll just state what most everyone knows but hardly anyone says: drinking and driving is a national sport in the U.S. In the vast, vast majority of cases, no harm is done.

Murray Rothbard once told me that he thought drunk driving should be legal. I was stunned and shocked that anyone would say such a thing. But over time, I began to see his point. It is not outrageous at all. He was exactly right.

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HT/ lol_donkaments

» 47 Comments

  1. IronyCurtain

    January 1st, 2013

    In my world, the bastards would hang in the village square.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +11

     
  2. Unruly Refugee

    January 1st, 2013

    I hate drunk drivers too but I have nearly been killed several times in just the last couple years by assholes texting while driving. At least Drunks have their eyes on the road and thus a chance they might swerve out of your way. Texters should have a bounty on their heads.

    “According to a car and driver study, driver’s reaction time while reading and sending texts was way worse than while impaired with alcohol. “

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +13

     
  3. conservative cowgirl

    January 1st, 2013

    It sounds like the writer hasn’t seen the results of drunk driving accidents up close and personal. I have. I have no patience with them. Nor do I have patience for texting drivers.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +11

     
  4. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    I think this deep deep thinker is trying to make the case that unless the drunk is driving recklessly they haven’t done anything criminal… YET.

    We should allow them to go on their merry way and leave them the hell alone until they plow into an oncoming family.

    Same thing with Ferry Captains, and Train Conductors, and your Brain Surgeon.

    This is exactly why I want to slap the shit out of Ron Paul and anyone who gargles his nutsack like a Frank Sinatra bobbysoxer.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +18

     
  5. conservative cowgirl

    January 1st, 2013

    @Fur, you sure have a way with words:

    “…anyone who gargles his nutsack like a Frank Sinatra bobbysoxer.”

    Hahahaha!!!

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +10

     
  6. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    Playin devil’s advocate here.
    They need to ban guns for the same reason. To prevent nut jobs from plowing into a classroom full of kids.

    Thumb up +5

     
  7. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    Why shouldn’t blind drivers be allowed to drive?
    As long as they do everything right there is no need to harass them.
    Same with 5 year-olds.
    Give them the keys.
    Why test anyone to see if they know what they are doing before letting them take the 18-wheeler out on the highway.
    Licenses are FOR SUCKERS WHO LET THE MAN PUT THEM UNDER THE THUMB.

    Thumb up +7

     
  8. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    Apples and Oranges MNP.

    The Drunk DRIVER is being punished, not the car.
    This is why I said a while back that a DUI should mean your gun permit gets revoked.
    You’ve shown you can’t be trusted to be a responsible person. You show bad judgment so you
    lose your privilege.

    Thumb up +9

     
  9. Unruly Refugee

    January 1st, 2013

    I have never met a cop who was even the least bit lenient with drunk drivers. Even if 0bama’s drunk uncle were made the drunk diving law writing czar, the cops are still going to bust every single case.

    Thumb up +3

     
  10. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    Fair enough.
    I was’nt siding with the guy.
    Just throwin that lib shit out there, see where it goes.

    Thumb up +4

     
  11. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    I know.

    Thumb up +5

     
  12. Jorel Lives!

    January 1st, 2013

    I’ve been in cars with people half stoned. One time with a guy who sideswiped a dozen cars on a side street. The sparks were terrifyingly fun to watch, but if it hadn’t been so late, I think we would have ended up in the hospital, and not from a car wreck in itself. Another time was a wrap around a pole, as a passenger I was very lucky. We both survived. Miracle. Oh yeah, then there was the night with my cousin. We both ran from the scene after he smashed up both cars pretty good. How we didn’t get hurt still remains a mystery to me. I think God loves me. One of the reasons why I quit drinking over thirty years ago.

    As for texting, I had to laugh when about a week or two ago a nice young lady in a compact pulled up to the corner on the side street where I was about to cross (with a stop sign), and took 1/10th of a sec to glance up from here texting to simply look straight ahead, ignoring the rest of the 360 degrees in her realm of vision, and continued to run the stop sign and make a turn, totally oblivious to me and the rest of the intersection. I hope she’s dead by now, so that nobody else may be in danger of his or her life because she just can’t wait to tell Alice about her new hairdo or something.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +12

     
  13. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    Seriously, I’d love to see this “libertarian writer’s”
    reaction when he’s gonna be wheeled in for brain surgery and his doctor is swigging from a flask in the hallway.

    “Noo, no, Mr. Libertarian. Everything is fine. As soon as he accidentally severs an artery in your head will cite him with a hefty fine.”

    This is why I would never identify myself as a libertarian.
    As much as I like Nick Gillespie, he’s just another punk who thinks the world should work according to his libertarian dissertation that he wrote in college.
    They are all egghead theorists, and they are super serious about it, until real world situations challenge their Pollyanna fantasies.
    Same thing with anarchists.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +11

     
  14. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    Speaking of anarco’s, What happened to Uncle Al?

    Thumb up +2

     
  15. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    And is’nt Ann B. an anarco. now?

    Thumb up +1

     
  16. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    I think Uncle Al is hanging out at EvilConservatives.net

    Same with Zonga. But I see her here from time to time.

    Thumb up +2

     
  17. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    I’m actually really sorry for trolling Al.
    Did’nt understand the IOTW dynamic at the time.

    Thumb up 0

     
  18. Jorel Lives!

    January 1st, 2013

    @Fur

    Sorry. LMAO at that one.

    “Oooooopps! Ah, I’m so sorry about that. Sshhhhh! He’s under. Hic! He won’t notice. Hey, nurse, where’s my olive? Hic!”

    Thumb up +1

     
  19. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

     
  20. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    No Jorel.
    I don’t drink on New Years.
    Never have.
    Bad luck.

    Thumb up +1

     
  21. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    MNP -

    Uncle Al is/was bullet proof.
    He didn’t take offense to anything.
    I said some shitty things to Al and
    it didn’t phase him.
    He knew the art of the game. He’s good at it.
    But it was right around the time that everyone piled on him
    for defending Bradley Manning that he disappeared.
    That was more than a pig pile, he could hardly find
    one person that had his back on that one.

    Thumb up +3

     
  22. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    Besides, I have to work in the morning.

    Thumb up 0

     
  23. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    Thanks Fur, this is why this is the best Blog in the history of Blogs.
    Interaction with the owner in real time.

    Thumb up +5

     
  24. Bad Brad

    January 1st, 2013

    AAAh, the Libertarians I know like to tout unlimited freedom until something bad happens, then it’s like what the hell were those assholes thinking. It’s a weak argument. You just can’t have it both ways.

    Thumb up +3

     
  25. BigFurHat

    January 1st, 2013

    I know, Jorel.
    I’m not into Minority Report, and identifying criminals before they do anything. But common sense has to be brought to the table without people screeching that our civil liberties are being eroded.
    We KNOW that alcohol alters the mind. That’s why people are drinking it.
    There are things that happen in society that require sobriety.
    Is that REALLY too much to ask?
    If a drunk is a house painter, fine. We can repaint the house if he doesn’t do a good job.
    How do we resurrect the dead when we listen to “Marty” assuring us that “Lenny” drives BETTER when he’s drunk?
    And how does a cop determine he’s pulled over a Lenny?
    Seriously. the libertarian view is that a cop should let a guy drive away drunk because he was driving in a straight line when the cop observed him?
    I guess the libertarian view is that the guy should be able to keep drinking, right behind the wheel, after the cop lets him go.

    Thumb up +8

     
  26. Jerry Manderin

    January 1st, 2013

    Libertarians have this “anything goes” ideology that doesn’t measure the unintended consequences. Borderline “progressive light.”. I love freedom and liberty as much as the next guy but I don’t want some drunk prog plowing into my family on our way to grandma’s house.

    Thumb up +7

     
  27. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    Sorry Jorel. All I saw was the I’m sorry in my post then the I’m sorry in your’s and skipped the rest.
    Happy New Year.

    Thumb up 0

     
  28. MNP

    January 1st, 2013

    I tried to register at EC.net with BFH as referer and they denied me.

    Thumb up +1

     
  29. Jorel Lives!

    January 1st, 2013

    @Fur

    This is why I come here. Not because of the characters both good and questionable, but to quench my thirst for righteousness and to seek comfort with those of like mindedness.

    Simplicity isn’t always the best answer. Ron Paul, a libertarian, sounded good on a lot of things, but when it came to Middle East diplomacy and esp. Israel’s right to existence, he fell short in commitment. Wrong. You don’t turn your back on your friends to please those who could care less about who your friends are. Where the hell did common sense run away to? No man is an island unto himself. Same is not true for a nation?

    Who should really get an entitlement here?

    A) The guy in his late thirties with the permanent back injury jogging home from the gym to get his SSI check out of the mailbox.

    B)Yolanda, with two grown daughters out of the house, and the third turning seventeen, considering yet another man to impregnate her to keep her on the welfare rolls for another eighteen years.

    C) An older woman, forty year veteran of Woolworths full time, long working after her husbands death, alone, and now disabled with heart disease and diabetes among other ailments and conditions, having little to begin with, and needing more medical than housing and food.

    There’s nothing wrong with free trade. What’s wrong is greed and abandonment. In real life, a company making a product in NY, crossed the border to Canada to save money, leaving at least a dozen or more workers out of a job and in the unemployment office after years of dedication. That’s not right. It’s not about you and your family. It’s about you and your family and your COMMUNITY and STATE and COUNTRY!

    Common sense and morality. That’s what it’s all about. Conservative or liberal, do the right thing. Progress is GOOD. Capitalism is GOOD. Charity is GOOD. Keeping order and peace is GOOD.

    It’s never going to be perfect. Life is that way. We should do our best. Always. Even if we don’t. We should strive to do our best to work, build, gain, help those in true need, fight for those who need someone to help them overcome their wicked enemy, etc.

    Man, I got shut up. Whew!

    Thumb up +7

     
  30. old_oaks

    January 1st, 2013

    I’ve been stopped 3-4 times, drunker than a skunk. One time I went by Johnny Law faster than I saw his whip antennas go by.

    Not once did I inherit the DUI/DWI curse.

    Some of us are better at keeping stuff between the paint than others.

    I actually drive more sober when I’ve had a few.

    Thumb up +4

     
  31. Bad Brad

    January 1st, 2013

    What is EC.net?

    That’s Burr’s place. EvilConsrvatives.net. Good site. -bfh

    Thumb up 0

     
  32. Unruly Refugee

    January 1st, 2013

    BigFurHat, I’ve been trying (wrongly) to figure out how Ron Paul gargles his nut sack (lol)! Now I get it, just got it. His followers (duh) do the gargling. LOL. Don’t know how I missed that. That is funnier than shit.

    Thumb up +5

     
  33. Unruly Refugee

    January 1st, 2013

    I’m always trashing Arkansas for being so far behind the rest of the nation in technology, but when it comes to busting drunk drivers they may be one of the best. The Arkansas BAT (Breath Alcohol Testing) Mobile is pretty high tech. The HGN camera is hard to beat.

    “The BAT Mobile itself is a 44 feet International truck that was built in Arkansas by Taylor Made Ambulance in Newport. The BAT Mobile has four different cameras on board that are constantly recording the entirety of the sobriety checkpoint. There are two interior cameras to record officers performing Standardized Field Sobriety Tests (SFST’s) on drivers that are suspected of drug and/or alcohol impairment. There is a light tower approximately 30 feet in height atop the BAT Mobile. This light tower is equipped with powerful flood lights to illuminate the exterior of the vehicle for the safety of the drivers entering the sobriety checkpoint, as well as for the safety of the police officers working the checkpoint. Additionally, there is a camera on the light tower for exterior surveillance of the sobriety checkpoint. The last camera system on the vehicle is a Hawkeye HGN camera system that records the involuntary jerking of the eyes of an impaired person. This involuntary jerking is known as Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (HGN) and is the most accurate of the three (3) standardized field sobriety tests.”

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  34. Czar of Defenestration

    January 1st, 2013

    “What’s being criminalized is the chemical make up of the blood in your body.”

    Umm…NO.

    Bad (“reckless”) driving, compounded by *why* one is driving poorly, is what is being criminalized.

    LAME argument.

    Thumb up +4

     
  35. Boobie the Rocket Dog

    January 1st, 2013

    “This is exactly why I want to slap the shit out of Ron Paul and anyone who gargles his nutsack like a Frank Sinatra bobbysoxer.”

    Great wordsmithery but I’d probably get the meaning if I’d ever paid any attention to Ron Paul, which I did not.

    And, speaking of the influence of alcohol, I have witnessed many a BUI even on this here site! Last night was a good example. But nobody got killed. One thing about free speech– it’s often tiresome.

    Thumb up +2

     
  36. Boobie the Rocket Dog

    January 1st, 2013

    @ Jorel Lives!- Then again, sometimes BUI actually produces a readable rant.

    Amen, Superman Dad.

    Thumb up +1

     
  37. Chieftain

    January 1st, 2013

    Way too much hyperbole and far too many strawman arguments for this article to be taken anywhere near seriously. It is obvious that this writer never saw the results of a fatal drink driving accident where the drunk survived and his victims did not.

    The point is that “the cops” don’t just make up rules to bust people, they follow the law that communities have determined are in the best interests of everyone. Cops don’t jam a needle in your arm on the side of the road, either. If a blood draw is needed because a drunk refused a breathalyzer test, then there are procedures for taking that person to a medical facility that is qualified to draw blood for the test.

    The phrase has been used so much that it is a cliche by itself, but the US Constitution is not a mutual suicide pact, and this article is a good way to understand just what that phrase really means.

    Thumb up +5

     
  38. jane

    January 1st, 2013

    Everyone agrees that drunk driving is unsafe and dangerous. But when the mothers changed their spite from being against DRUNK DRIVING and instead turned it toward DRUNK DRIVERS, a new species of enslaved Americans were born. So now you have a panel of three people whose names you don’t know, who’ve never been elected to anything, make the decision on when you can get your license back? All the while you’re expected to carry on without car as though it’s no big deal. I, for one, enjoyed this article. And no, I’ve never had a drunk driving ticket but I’ve seen it cripple lives of people who did nothing more than drink legally at an establishment known specifically for serving alcohol… you know the places… they’re called bars, inns, taverns, pubs, etc… and they usually have big parking lots.

    Thumb up +7

     
  39. Death_By_Farts

    January 1st, 2013

    As a former LEO, I can see the arguement from both ends.

    Hate to say it folks, but the reason why some cops don’t show any leeway is because their department and often the Officers themselves recieve grant money for each arrest, yes you heard correctly.

    I was also a dispatcher, and worked shifts when the county agencies were having a county-wide DUI Taskforce, which made my life hell for eight hours as I was hammered with radio traffic and requests for 10-27′s, 10-28′s (plate and license checks) from over a dozen multiple agencies at once. I thought that was BULLSHIT.

    I also disagree with getting pulled over for something as rediculous as a tail-light out, or the light on the license plate being out. Do you think cops give a shit about the light being out? No, it is an EXCUSE TO PULL YOU OVER, and see if they can nail you for something else, DUI, weapon/drugs in plain view within the vehicle, etc.
    That’s how they get the drunk/buzzed drivers most of the time…They have to have a reason to stop your vehicle, unless it’s a checkpoint or seatbelt enforcement zone.
    I disagree with getting pulled over for having one light out. Unless both rear lights or both headlights are out, they have no business stopping cars.

    On a lighter note, ever had a cop follow you for a while, not pull you over, but drive you nuts with wondering why? It’s because he is running your plate, AND, waiting to see if your car swerves over the white line in the least. He’s bored, and waiting for your plate (or you) to come back invalid/expired so he can stop you.
    It sucks, but sometimes cops get bored and want to remind people who they are.
    I myself was the complete opposite. I even drove a couple of drunks home instead of arresting them…Do you know how much of a headache all that bullshit paperwork is??

    Thumb up +9

     
  40. sig94

    January 1st, 2013

    Mr. Tucker needs to spend some time cutting dead bodies out of a car that was just totaled by a drunk driver. Then go and wake up the parents at 0300 hrs and tell them their son is dead.

    And the drunk goes off to jail without a scratch.

    Thumb up +3

     
  41. conservative cowgirl

    January 1st, 2013

    Not to beat a dead horse, but a drunk driver came too close for comfort to altering our family’s life forever. When our son was five years old, my husband was on his way to work on a Sunday morning (at 5:00 AM) and was hit head on by a drunk driving illegal alien and his equally drunk passengers. Their Bronco flipped after hitting my husband’s little Toyota truck. The driver and one passenger were killed instantly. One other died later and one had minor injuries. By the grace of God my husband was uninjured. One of the CHP officers said it “was a miracle he wasn’t killed”. I went to the tow yard to look at the vehicles and took photos to always remember how close we came to losing him.

    Thumb up +4

     
  42. Carlos The Jackal

    January 1st, 2013

    Ya know Fur, I tried staking out my local bar, following how much people drink, and observing how many get in cars after, but I got so freaking hammered I forgot why I was there.

    Thumb up +4

     
  43. Immortal Fish

    January 1st, 2013

    Motor vehicle laws are quite lucrative. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was such a sophisticated system for immigration enforcement? But there’s no money in that.

    It’s a shake down. The people in charge don’t care about keeping the public safe. What other conclusion is there to draw?

    Thumb up +3

     
  44. Rich_H

    January 1st, 2013

    The “grudge” is a worthlessly bad analogy. A grudge is not a purposely and chemically self-induced,
    Like a felon gives up his freedom and right to vote for his chosen action, so does one who chooses to get drunk give up his right to drive and his freedom if he chooses to do so anyway.
    While friends, services offered by bars and restaurants, community interest groups, etc. are a good first step to prevent a drunk from driving, the police are the second step should the first fail.

    Thumb up +1

     
  45. AbigailAdams

    January 1st, 2013

    Something I’ve been able to discern about libertarians is that they take the “morality” part about the founding very seriously, the part where it takes a moral (the founders used the word ‘virtuous’) people to live under a self-governing republic. Ask one about the God-given freedom of being left alone to pursue one’s happiness and it is presumed one is not harming others in that pursuit I would be interested to know more about the writer’s background. It doesn’t seem as though he has a clear grasp of this tenet. on it’s face it makes a persuasive argument against libertarianism, if you concede his flawed premise/logic.

    I believe there is some confusion over what a true libertarian believes. There are purists who would give too much credit to human nature and end up living happily next door to an anarchist. These are the kids who, before becoming Paul bots, voted for hope and change.

    Thumb up +2

     
  46. Gummint Cheese

    January 1st, 2013

    Death By Farts – thank you for confirming what I’ve long heard and suspected about DUI arrest incentives.

    Thumb up +1

     
  47. Gummint Cheese

    January 1st, 2013

    A good way to prevent drunk driving would be to mandate that all vehicles be fitted with ignition interlock systems. I call it the Blo-N-Go system.

    I went to Walgreen’s and bought a portable blood alcohol testing unit, a breathalyzer. I keep it in my car and if I’ve been drinking at a bar, restaurant or party, I Blo-N-Go. Only a few times did I fail and each time I called a cab for a ride home. By the way, these portable units are less than a hundred bucks – I got mine for $65.

    It’s cheap insurance against driving drunk considering that most states a first offense DUI will easily cost you $10,000. Without even hiring a shyster you will be out ten grand in tickets, fines, bail, court costs, MADD classes, alcohol intervention classes, community service, ignition interlock rental, increased car insurance (over three years).

    There’s also a damn good chance you will lose your job unless you have a very understanding boss.

    Don’t give The Man an excuse to slap handcuffs on you. Only your girlfriend or wife should be able to do that in the privacy of your home. ;)

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