iOwnTheWorld.com

Licking the candy canes while they are still on the tree can lead to a sticky situation

+8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnt7euRF5Pg&feature=player_detailpage

Merry Christmas, everybody!

+8

Jack Klugman passed last night

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBIT_KLUGMAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-24-18-11-02

I always loved Quincy M.E. We still use the line “This could be an epidemic” around the household. A very smart TV detective show that championed a number of issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXf4tV_aeDc

You’ll be missed Jack

+9

So what do you think Mooseshelle serves her family on Christmas Day?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/12/24/167960027/christmas-a-busy-season-for-tamale-makers

+4

Unruly Refugee– Thanks for the link to Eva Cassidy, what a voice!

+7

The Mass at the Basilic was so ravishing, we are going again at 17h00!!

+6

Jack,

No weapon, but my son sent me a scope and mounting kit for my SKS.

Close enough?

+8

Tim,

SWEET!!! close enough.

I’m still waiting for my Desert Eagle…no one’s buying…too damn expensive here!!

+6

Merry Christmas to all!

+9

Und to allus a gut nacht! Hope y’all had a fun safe Christmas!

+6

Wait! Not good night just yet! Lemme get a very Merry Christmas in here as well. Thanks to all at IOTW. You ALL have done a great deal to amuse, entertain, and inform. Thanks very much!!!

+7

@Illustr8r, that’s a date! But please lose the hat.

+2

Just make sure that mistletoe you two pucker up under isn’t disguised as BigFur’s giant toe-tipped missile.

Unless of course norman e. has hopes to fly Illustr8r to the moon! Which direction should I be looking at for lift off?

+4

Merry Christmas and God Bless everyone!

+4

BTW, not only did I get a white Christmas in Texas, I also got a .357.

Yet another reason to be content this holiday.

+8

@Dan Ryan Galt–

“Christmas Carols for the Dysfunctional”

Those were great! I forwarded that to every therapist I know.
————

Merry Christmas to all my iOTW friends! When the world gets crazy, I check in here for balance, perspective, and encouragement. Am never disappointed, thanks to you all.

God bless you and your families!

+7

Mary, you must know that: did Job live after or before Abraham?
_______
Dagny, I know you didn’t ask me, but most of my professors in Religion believe he lived before Abraham. Mary probably has more info. My religion classes were in the early 70s. – c

+2

We just got our internet back! Merry Christmas eveyone!

+6

Merry Christmas my friends, and thanks for being the characters that you are. Personality, that’s what separates us from the liberal sites! That and opposable thumbs!

+7

@Dagny–

The answer partly depends on whether you are a follower of Bultmann or Machen.

What brought this question to your mind on Christmas Day, of all days?

+2

Thanks Mary.

I was talking with a cousin of mine about the history of salvation, — from Abraham to the glorious birth of Our Lord, — after the 17h00 Mass of Nativity.

I’ve been reading a lot of rabinnical literature lately, and tomorrow, we’ll go give some gifts to a lovely familiy of orthodox Jews living nearby. I like them a lot; the woman is very knowledgble, as his her husband, a rabbi. I want to ask them a few questions about the evolution of satan and various demons in their worldview.

I just realised, talking with my cousin, that my theory would be reduced to nihil if Job had lived after Abraham, however. I don’t want the woman to laugh of my ignorance; she makes me feel quite shy!!

+4

@Dagny–

Why do you think your theory would be reduced to nil if Job had lived after Abraham? How would that impact your questions about the “evolution” of Satan, etc?

+1

@Dagny–

Just got back to this, following a very late Christmas dinner. As you have not answered my questions, perhaps you are on the East Coast, and have long ago gone to bed.

Anyway, for lack of time to discuss this, I would suggest that you just ask questions and listen to their answers. I can’t imagine why they would laugh at you, if you are being sincere in your asking. They will probably be glad to talk with you about anything and everything theological.

I’m not familiar with the Orthodox Jewish view of Job, Satan, and demons; you’ll probably end up knowing more than me by the end of your visit. (And now I am prompted to go off and do some research on my own, as always happens with these discussions.)

+1

Many thanks c!!

– Mary,

In the prologue of the Book of Job, Satan appears together with other “sons of God,” before the LORD; he seemed then to be a “good” guy, absolutely obedient to the LORD. Satan for instance replied to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”

Satan was still a member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the purpose of searching out men’s sins and accusing them; he had not yet declared war to the LORD; he still seemed to have no power of independent action; he asked permissions of God; he could not not be regarded, yet, as an opponent of the LORD. Satan obeyed when an “angel of the LORD,” bid him to be silent.

My theory is that he fell right after God made his Covenant with what will be known as the Chosen People, the people of Israel, by declaring WAR against GOD right then.

That’s why, had Job lives after Abraham, that theory of mine could not stand.

From mere accuser of men, Satan became an enemy of Israel; he declared war on the chosen people; and by proxy on the whole humanity, the rest of which Christ saved later on.

+2

I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas. Best wishes for 2013.

+4

So I was busy with family and driving intrastate and had not a thing to do with a computer and missed the ‘official thread’.

Merry Christmas all.

+4

Merry Christmas.

http://www.wickedfunnypictures.com/twitter-pictures/twitter-users-getting-ready-for-christmas/
.

+3

@Dagny–

This thread has fallen far, far down the list, so I have no idea if you will see this post from me.

And in any case, it would take a mini-treatise to respond. I would take issue with these at least:

(1) Satan appears with the sons of God/the “Divine Council”, but it is unclear in the wording if he is actually “one of them”–my interpretation is that he is not.

(2) your saying that Satan seems to be a “good guy” & absolutely obedient in the book of Job; I do not see where you get that interpretation

(3) “going to and fro in the earth…” is emotion-neutral, so I wouldn’t take that comment of his to automatically mean he was being obedient to God

(4) “He had not yet declared war on the Lord”–again, I do not see where you get that interpretation. He might have, or might not have. I believe that he already had, at this time.

(4) I do not see Satan “asking permission” of God to do anything, which would suggest a deferential position. God ALLOWS him to act upon Job. That is completely consistent with the understanding that, no matter when Satan declared himself an enemy of God, he ultimately has lesser power. His only influence is over human beings, not over God himself.

(5) you said, “Satan obeyed when an ‘angel of the LORD,’ bid him to be silent.” Where is this in the book of Job? I do not find such a reference.

(6) You also said, “My theory is that he fell right after God made his Covenant with what will be known as the Chosen People, the people of Israel, by declaring WAR against GOD right then.”
Upon what do you base this theory? Most traditional theologians place the fall of Satan shortly after the 7th day of creation, certainly long, long before God’s covenant with Abraham.

Aside from all this, how did your visit go?

0

Hi Mary,

Before I reply more extensively, there:

Zechariah 3:1
King James Version (KJV)
3 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zechariah 3:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

As per a rabbinical interpretation read here:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

0

@Dagny–

Quick response–as that reference is not in the Book of Job, it can’t be DIRECTLY applied to interpreting the Book of Job.

At the very least, for a general understanding of Satan, there is the difficulty of chronology: which came first–Job or Zechariah? I think you can see the problem. The first might influence the second, but the later can’t influence the earlier.

I will check out your reference, but as I am not a student of rabbinical theology, I will be mostly at sea. Rabbinical and Christian interpretations of Scripture sometimes overlap, but there will be a lot of differences, obviously.

0

Mary, Let me thank you for the feedback.

I am trying to understand why allah/satan hates the Jewish People so much; and trying to understand the key-role of Jerusalam in the WAR. Now the war is raging towards Damascus; after, the prime target will be Jerusalem; that’s what various Salafi-jihadis groups, al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood are ALL saying.

If I’m not mistaken, Mount Moriah (aka Zion) was where Abram became Abraham; where the Covenant was sealed. And it was there that, later, after Kind David reconquered Canaan (Israel) and rebooted the Chosen People from a tribal form of life into a kingdom, a royal form of life, a Temple was built. His son Solomon built The Temple on the spot where Abraham accepted the Covenant, a Temple representing the Garden of Eden, and containing the Holy of Holies, into which was placed the Ark of The Covenant built under Moses, with the broken Tables of the Law.

I assume that satan was totally pissed off by the Abrahamic Covenant; the rabbinical literature says he was also burning with rage when the Jewish People received the Ten Commandments.

I’m thinking there might be a devolution; I don’t know; I’m speculating. But he certainly created islam; and I’m feeling very strongly that it is in reaction to The Incarnation of Our lord.

The second caliph (Umar) raided Canaan, and built the Temple of the Rock over the Temple of Solomon. The Dome was completed in 692. The caliph also built the al-Aqsa mosque, on the southern side of the Mount, facing Mecca.

All this is clearly the work of satan.

+2

It does not matter if Job and Zec were not contemporaneous; as long as there is this participation of satan among the Council of the ‘sons of god’. As long as this participation occured before the Abrahamic Covenant.

It looks as if at one point satan stopped from participating within this angelic Council, and was not anymore obeying to the Angels of the Lord, and was waging full-spectrum war, acting autonomously no matter what.

0

I was quoting Job and Zeck as instances looks like he was still acting obediently, without being a full-fledge enemy of the Lord.

(1) Satan appears with the sons of God/the “Divine Council”, but it is unclear in the wording if he is actually “one of them”–my interpretation is that he is not.

I understand.

(2) your saying that Satan seems to be a “good guy” & absolutely obedient in the book of Job; I do not see where you get that interpretation

I get it from the fact that in both Job and Zek Satan asks permission before proceeding.

(3) “going to and fro in the earth…” is emotion-neutral, so I wouldn’t take that comment of his to automatically mean he was being obedient to God

You’re right; I was using it t set the stage of the divine Council.

(4) “He had not yet declared war on the Lord”–again, I do not see where you get that interpretation. He might have, or might not have. I believe that he already had, at this time.

(4) I do not see Satan “asking permission” of God to do anything, which would suggest a deferential position. God ALLOWS him to act upon Job. That is completely consistent with the understanding that, no matter when Satan declared himself an enemy of God, he ultimately has lesser power. His only influence is over human beings, not over God himself.

Yes, I understand; but with islam it looks like he did it on its own; whereas with Job, he had to receive permission from God before torturing Job. Do you think he asked the permission to invent islam?
(6) You also said, “My theory is that he fell right after God made his Covenant with what will be known as the Chosen People, the people of Israel, by declaring WAR against GOD right then.”
Upon what do you base this theory? Most traditional theologians place the fall of Satan shortly after the 7th day of creation, certainly long, long before God’s covenant with Abraham.

Makes sense?

0

The rabbinic family was not there when it suited us; we’ll try our luck tomorrow.

0

Dagny, Satan does not ask permission, he states his opinion that Job would not be God fearing if not for his health and wealth.
In both instances God says go ahead and test Job, he will stay true.

+2

@Dagny–

I was just going to post a reply to the “permission” business, but MNP said exactly what I was going to say.

It has always seemed more to me like Satan is taunting God at this point: “Job’s not so great. Take away what he has, and he won’t be such a paragon any more.” And the rest of the book is proof that God’s original claim about Job is true.

+2

@Dagny–

You have so many posts that it’s difficult to address all your points–sorry. And there are several large issues blended together.

It does seem to me that whatever God loves, Satan hates. And whatever God sets apart as special, Satan especially hates. God set apart the Israelites as His chosen people, so of course Satan would burn with hatred toward them, eternally.

And obviously Satan would hate Jesus, God’s Son. Those who are followers of Christ experience that hatred too.

Your point about Islam being satanically inspired? No arguments from me there.

+1

“Dagny, Satan does not ask permission, he states his opinion that Job would not be God fearing if not for his health and wealth.
In both instances God says go ahead and test Job, he will stay true.”

Thank you so much, both of you.

I understand, but I feel there is a change in his attitude.

He never appears among the ‘sons of God’ after the Covenant.

What I take from your helpful inputs is this: my hypothesis is very shaky; not eloquent and convincing at all. I will have to get way more material in order to ‘prove’ that Satan did ask permission at one point; and then stopped doing it — IF that’s indeed the case; I don’t know now.

But that’s my working hypothesis. Maybe it’s wrong; I have work to do in order to find this out. Many thanks guys.

0

Dagny, Don’t get too bogged down with the trees of the old testament. Focus on the forest of the new testament. The new covenant.
Get a Red letter edition of the NKJV and read the red letters only for a while.
Pray for your fellow man and for wisdom.
Then go back to studying the old testament.
Keep the faith Dagny and God bless.

+3

“In both instances God says go ahead and test Job, he will stay true.””

The fact that Satan needed the go ahead of God seems to imply that satan still was obedient at that point (before the Covenant); obedient, not only impotent.

Otherwise, he could have just tried anyway and failed; but no, he WAITED for God’s go-ahead. My hypothesis is that at one point he just did not care about God’s go-ahead.

That’s the difference between before and after the Covenant, as per Satan — methinks.

0

Thank you MNP! God bless you to.

+3

This problematics obsess me because so many christians hate the Jewish People; don’t undertand that we must protect them from islam. That’s why I’m working on this; to build brigdes between the Jewish people and Christians.

+2

“Get a Red letter edition of the NKJV and read the red letters only for a while.
Pray for your fellow man and for wisdom.”

Hmmmm. I’ll have to think about it, before promising anything; but I love programs. Hmmmm.

0

God will protect them.
Many Christians hate Jews because they believe that the Jews killed Jesus.
If you are concerned for the Jews read the prophets.
God is going to bring all of their enemies against them in the end.

+2

So I shall not work on this? I shall laisser-faire? That could be hard; I dunno; something urges me to do it. I’m confused now.

I’ll probably do as you suggested: “Get a Red letter edition of the NKJV and read the red letters only for a while.
Pray for your fellow man and for wisdom.” And then I might know better.

0

If Christians and Jews do not stand together, we will all fall to Islam. You’d think that would be a powerful enough reason to leave off the hatred.

+1

No hatred here MfM.

+2

Dagney I don’t know a lot about religion but if you know Christians who hate Jews, they’re not Christians. At least not my type of Christian. Surround yourself with those you want to emulate.

+1

I do already have a good Bible, not the NKJV edition, but one with both the latin text of Jerome and the translation.

0

Right on Xavier.

+1

@MNP & @Xavier–

Agree. But there is a lot of confused thinking floating around, and it is used against true Christianity by those who would sow strife. Somewhat similar to the “blood libel” stuff, in a lesser way.

+1

Xavier, I know what you mean, but it’s possible to build bridges between Christians (even stupid one, in the grisp of a satanic hatred) and Jewish people; it’s in the order of things. I believe the power of the Verb, of Reason, can neutralize that hatred and build a bridge among many. It would be impossible however to build bridges betweens muzzies and Jews; that would be a lie.

+1

But in the spirit of spreading the gospel in our time of WAR, could it not be a good work to use the power of Reason to build bridge between ‘anti-semitic’ Christians and Jews? Like using the evil of islam to reveal the strong, natural solidarity among Jewish People and Christians — in the way a weak guy can use the force of his adversary against him?

+1

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus loves the jewish people. I stand with Jesus.

+4

On the contrary Dagny. I have turned at least 5 muslims to the truth. Who knows how far they have gone with the word.
Here is a former muzzie who knows the truth, not because of me though, can’t take credit for this one.
http://www.alrassooli.org/

+2

it’s pretty amazing how islam reveals the true solidarity between the Jewish People and Christians; that’s a ‘good’ side of islam, if I may say so; I want to use it – the intensification of islam in this world — in order to solidify the link between the people of the Old Covenant and the people of the New Covenant; they are not incompatible; they are genealogically linked; whereas islam is alien.

Somehow islam — this alien, satanic force — could very well feed (retroactively) a stronger solidarity among Jews and Christians.

+1

Jesus was born a Jew. He lived a life as a practicing Jew. He died on the cross a Jew.

Anyone who says they are a Christian but tells you they dislike or hate Jews is a liar. I have no respect for this type of phony Christian. Blaming Jews for the death of Jesus is just a convenient excuse for the continuation of persecuting the Jewish people.

For even Jesus himself while dying on the cross, asked God to forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe that statement included the Jews as well as the Romans who were personally involved in his crucifixion.

+6

@MNP — I fully agree. It ain’t contrary to what I tried to say, however. One can turn a muslim into a christian; but one can not build a bridge between islam and the Jewish people; islam is hostile to the Jews; and the Jews should exterminate islam in order to survive. The Christians could turn muslims into Christians; yes, i’m all for it; never said anything against it.

I was speaking about islamjewish; not islam->christianity.

Could a muzzie turn into a Jew? Well, I guess. But I’ve never contemplated the possibility, lol.

+2

Yes, Kairn, well put. But it could could quite ‘easy’ to turn a lying, ‘lost’ Christian into a friend of the Jewish People; he would then be closer to Christ. That’s my whole point.

+1

@MNP Whalid Shoebat is a great example also.
http://shoebat.com/

+1

God’s going to exterminate Islam.
He is the only one who can get them all.

0

Shoebat’s good too. Former terrorist turned to Christ.

+1

“God’s going to exterminate Islam.
He is the only one who can get them all.”

Should I not try to become His tool in that mission?

+2

I did’nt mean give up.
Just know that God has said how it’s going to go down. And He said it a long time ago.
It’s all there to be seen.

0

@Dagny
Forgive me for seeming pedantic, but no one turns anyone into anything. When a human decides to become a muslim, a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Hindu, an atheist, or a plain old pagan, etc. it is due to free will.

If anyone becomes any of these things through coercion or threat of death, they are using their free will to acquiesce to the threatening bully’s wishes in order to spare their earthly life or they die with their free will intact by not being bullied into accepting a thing their heart and soul does not desire.

+2

Satan lost the war against God; but now the battles on this earth put in play millions of souls, which satan wants to capture for eternity.

+2

Amen Kairn. I meant ‘turning’ by using Reason; of course, God’s charity does the ‘turning,’ not the sword nor me. I shall use another verb than ‘turning’ to avoid a sensation of vertigo!

+2

Dagny, Jesus does the saving, not us.
God bless and good night.

+2

yes, but some humans need to fight the Crusade, and mobilize christians to solidarize with the Jews, and try to preserve JERUSALEM.

Covenant: in Jerusalem
Temple of Solomon: in Jerusalem

Rabbis think that Noah was buried in the same place where Abraham made the Covenant, where the Temple was built; they say Abel and Melchizedek buried him there.

It’s the center of the world, this eartly world.

+2

@Dagny
You can lead a person to the Tree of Life (Jesus) but you can’t ‘make’ them drink or eat of the beautiful sustenance Jesus offers all of mankind.

Show by example in the most humble of ways how much Jesus has done for your life. Both interior and exterior. It is difficult to explain, but even in your humility towards reflecting outwardly what Jesus expects of you, you will appear strong and self confident to others. Some will truly be curious. They will then be ready to listen to what you have to say regarding the gift they will receive when they accept Christ as their Savior.

For those who insist on being un curious, let them be. Simply move on.

+1

I’m always talking from the perspective of Crusade here, where christians need to solidarize and to help the Jewish People: to destroy the temple of the Rock, to exterminate islam; and to reactualize the celebration of judaism holiest place, on earth. Or something akin.

0

Kairn,

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I can’t resist:

Could our attitude change in peacetime from wartime?

Now we are in war time; and the attitude you are describing is godly, but is it adequate for wartime?

Should we not MOBILIZE?

0

the main premise, as I’ve said, is : the armies of allah are CONVERGING RIGHT NOW towards Damascus. The sole obstacle is the Assad régime. Once Assad is down (he will be, it’s only a matter of time; Obama, al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood; Turkey are ALL against Assad), the armies of allah will raid JERUSALEM.

Should we not mobilize? Trying urgently to mobilize those antisemitic Christians easily convertible with the use of Reason to becoming friend of the Jews….

+1

Joseph’s brothers didn’t recognize him until he revealed himself. He never condemned them either but forgave them. Joseph said it was all for a higher purpose.

Joseph is a type of Messiah.

The role of Christians is to love and defend Jews. Let the Messiah do the rest.

+2

Thank you, MNP. Gratzie!

+1

In wartime I don’t believe I would be concerned with proselytizing unless it is with an unbeliever who is beginning to believe while we are fighting for our lives in a foxhole. Only then would I help them to understand if they ask me.

We will mobilize when it is truly time to mobilize by the will of God. Be still right now Dagny. Be still and listen for God. Help others be still and to listen for what God expects of us. We all need to put a huge effort forth to turn straight on towards God, our society needs to humble itself right now before God. When we are strong in The Lord, He will work to weaken our enemies.

+2

Yes, sir. Thank you. I’ll be still for the rest of the night.

+2

@Dagny,
I meant that ‘be still’ in the kindest sense. I meant be still in your heart and soul right now. I know how frustrating all this stuff going on in the world is right now. It does seem like major offensive actions should be taken, but America is not right with God right now. Yes, the war is coming. But America needs to be more prepared in our spirits and in our morality and our humbleness towards God before we will be allowed to win any conflict against evil forces.

It is Christianity itself that needs to mobilize in America right now. American Christians need to collectively scare the living crap out of the libturds who have usurped the American narrative with a ferociousness they have never dreamed possible. Fight that evil first and win.Then the evil forces outside of America can be fought and beaten back to hell where they belong.

+3

@Kairn Yes sir !!

0

Excellent article! We will be linking to this great content on our website. Keep up the good writing.|

0