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The State of the Political Right

Home - by - December 4, 2012 - 20:00 America/New_York - 152 Comments

The following is a comment made on this thread. It was about the right’s staunch Christian values and how they play at the ballot box.

By Chiefillinicake -

This inquiry really stems back to the 80′s, with the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell/Focus on the Family/Dobson/Reed, etc. cabal. We got in bed BIG TIME with the evangelicals then, and the side-effects linger to this day.

I’m not being critical; it was a decision, and decisions have repercussions.

At some level, though, it does beg the question…why do political parties exist? Why belong to one? And what are they fairly expected to achieve?

For me, being a Republican is about fealty to the Constitution, promoting vigorous capitalism and a way up for anyone who chooses to plug in, defense of our individual rights and safeguarding OUR liberties, sound fiscal responsibility, and of course, national defense. That’s it.

Now, if the party’s overwhelming concern is becoming saving souls, or applying a litmus test to make sure only the “right people” get in, then perhaps our current lack of success is explainable.

We’re not selling the American Story anymore, more of a country club version is what we hear of late. Isn’t part of the term “party” wanting to be part of it?

Where’s our appeal to the strivers? The dreamers? The up and comers? The down and outers?

It seems to me that our core beliefs are solid, but we assume that everybody gets us, and face it, we’re political freaks, and it’s painfully clear now that they aren’t “getting us.”

Our public face is skewed. Too overtly religious. Too doctrinaire. To me, it’s about striking a balance and not being so full of your own bullshit that you put others off. There’s a separation of church and state for a reason. Who cares if our coalition includes the less traditional if we’re actually succeeding in moving forward the things I listed earlier? I don’t.

Look at Reagan. Everybody knew where he stood, rock solid on all of the fronts, clearly a man of God, but he pulled in all of those democrats too, didn’t he?

Gettem in first, then develop them further. But right now, there’s no hook.

I mean, who’s the leader of this party now? John Boehner? McConnell?

We’re telling the young and the gals and the Hispanics: “you’re a lazy slug, we don’t approve of your godless lifestyle, keep your legs crossed, and BTW…your fearless leaders (if you choose to sign up) will be John Boehner and Mr. Turtle” ?????

That’s a tough sell.

» 152 Comments

  1. Wraith

    December 4th, 2012

    He’s right, ya know.

    Thumb up +7

     
  2. Gina

    December 4th, 2012

    It’s not the political party that’s the problem, it’s the people. Sorry BFH but I think the cake is baked.

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  3. Mr. Happy

    December 4th, 2012

    Hummm…
    Get rid of Jesus or get rid of John Boehner.
    So we can get rid of one of the founding beliefs of this country so we can more easily sell idiots like Boehner to other idiots that want free stuff?

    Man, that’s a really fucking tough call.
    Gimme a minute.
    Hey, I got a better idea let’s get rid of the idiots from within out own party.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +15

     
  4. Knights Templar

    December 4th, 2012

    America’s problems center around the Godlessness of our American culture. I’m not a “Bible Thumper” but I do know that if you choose not to work, then you shouldn’t eat. If your not married, then you shouldn’t be having babies. If your not law abiding, then your not productive to a secure sane society. America gained it’s greatness because of the peoples love for God now it’s slipping away because of their rejection of God.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +40

     
  5. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    @Knights Templar–

    I wish I could give you multiple TUs. Consider it done, in the metaphysical realm.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +21

     
  6. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    I stayed off the thread not because I thought the thread would get out of hand, but because I thought I would get out of hand…but I cannot let this slide.

    First, there is no “seperation of church and state!!! And you call yourself a constitutionalist?

    Second, out “party” is not too religious!!! We are not too racist!!! We are not too homophobic!!! We are not too mysoginist!!! We are not too anti-science!!! We are not too anti-imagrant!!!

    We are none of the above!!! We, as a group, are about personal freedom and personal responsibility and limited government!!! It annoys the crap out of me that some people are so damn stupid to fall for the trap of letting others define your message for you. We will continue to fail as long as we let the MSM “sell” our message! They give thier pupposely skewed image of us so we turn on each other and eat our own…and then we do.

    It took me all of 5 minutes to check into that indian dude to see he has very little resemblance to a conservative. Some vetting of his history would have been prudent.

    To think that people wouldn’t join the GOP because of Boehner or McConnell is pretty shallow thinking…do you think Pelosi and Reid have a better message or are more apealing to the youg? Crap, pure crap!

    The MSM tells people what our message is, and the politicians live in fear of them…and for good reason, their careers depend on them. Until that is fixed, everybody is wasting their time disecting the what we need to do to be a successful party. And May I remind you, we won the house, have 30 Governers and more state houses than in most peoples living memory!!! We are not failing locally, we are winning. The MSM installed Obama back in 2007, and they heve kept their chosen one safe.

    see…I told ya I should have stayed out….

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  7. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    I feel like the AFLAC duck –

    TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!

    That’s the foundation. That should be the biggest emphasis for any nation that collectively decides it wants to be civilized and not live within perpetual chaos.

    Ask anyone if they want to live in perpetual chaos. Only a yes or no answer will suffice. If they answer ‘yes’ ask them to explain why living in the midst of chaos is their preferred choice of existence.

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  8. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    @Menderman
    I am glad you weighed in. I like your message. You are spot on.

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  9. Navigator

    December 4th, 2012

    Not buying it. Bush won two terms as a solid Christian. We lost because Obama’s tactics, although deceitful, were superior. You got to hand it to those damned democrats. They wagged the dog. They declared that the republicans were creating wars on women, race and class. Think about it. How do you rally the troops? Declare WAR!!!! We got outplayed by the Antichrist. It’s that simple.

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  10. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    Aw, heck, I’ll barge in with a comment from “Albacross”. If it’s my funeral, so be it.

    BFH wrote: “Shouldn’t the priority be to win elections in order to stamp out the political power of the left? The left would be defeated and the assault on Christianity would cease.”

    Seriously, BFH, do you really believe that stamping out the political power of the Left would stop the assault on Christianity? That Christianity’s most powerful enemy is the ascendant political Left?

    You are thinking way too narrowly; your bottom line does not go far enough down.

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  11. DavidD

    December 4th, 2012

    I don’t get Libertarians or go-along-to-get-along, middle-of-the-road types sometimes. One would think that the “live-and-let-live” position on abortion would be, um, the pro-life side.

    And another thing: it’s not even a religious position to say that gay “marriage” and free birth control / abortion-on-demand don’t make any sense. I mean, it’s a natural law that when you bring a fertile male and a fertile female together you are going to get procreation, whereas you can bring as many fertile males together with each other as you want, as many fertile females together with each other as you want, and you are never going to get procreation.

    Liberals want to pretend, while they’re pretending there’s no God, that there are no natural laws either. Try denying gravity for a while.

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  12. LizzieBee

    December 4th, 2012

    Didn’t we already have this argument? Didn’t the Boehners of the Congress kick out those who are for God and Country? I mean there was just a purge of the fiscal conservatives last night, right? Wake up, people. The Long Goodbye with the Republican Party has already happened.

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  13. Stranded in Sonoma

    December 4th, 2012

    One of the problems here is that we did have someone that could have been the face of the GOP, but the socialist press threw metaphorical acid all over Sarah Palin and exclaimed, “Look how UGLY she is!” Dole, McCain, and to a lesser extent Romney, were attempts at “electable” candidates that were just too easily perceived as being similar in mold to their opponents. I’m not saying that Romney=Obama — far from it. But the press can villify any Republican candidate it chooses with impunity. Look what they did to Herman Cain, a black conservative, without ever being labeled racist. If his wife forgave him, shouldn’t that be sufficient? Hillary “forgave” Bill and that was good enough for the socialist press at that time.

    The fact remains that any conservative candidates, whether minority or woman, will be excoriated in the socialist press to make them out to be “traitors to their race” or “traitors to their gender” and the koolaidians will lap it up as the truth.

    And the GOP isn’t much help. They are happy to play at being the minority party and are willing to go along to get along. They don’t want conservatives like Palin, and something to remember, Bush41 was their choice in 1980, not Reagan. When the GOP does have control, all we hear about is reaching across and isle and working together. But when the socialists are in charge it’s f*ck the republicans and move Vorwarts! All with the complicity of the press.

    I would love squash the left so bad that it will never rise the primordial ooze again. But with the press and the GOP against us, it’s going to be a long haul.

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  14. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    Do an Internet search for all the articles about all the courthouses that have been forced to remove the Ten Commandments over the last 10 years. And we are puzzling over why our current events are so riven with strife and divisiveness.

    Once upon a time, our nation wasn’t in the least embarrassed to call itself Judeo-Christian. It held us in good stead until now. Why are we even having to debate this issue anyways? The ungodly people have convinced us all to babble incoherently like a flock of stupid chickens. Why do we keep letting them manage the narrative?

    I wish I was smarter.

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  15. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    @Kairn–

    You are plenty smart enough already. Keep posting.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +16

     
  16. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    @Navigator–

    (Only slightly O/T: I read a recent article that pointed out that we (conservatives/Republicans/Tea Partiers/NOT-Dems, take your pick of groups, because all are guilty) are relying far too much on “tactics” and not enough on “strategy”. I agree.

    We can back-and-forth about tactics until the cows come home, but until we shift to strategic thinking, the leftists will always outmaneuver us. They do have a strategy; they’ve been working on it for generations.

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  17. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    Thank you Mary.

    But I wasn’t smart enough to figure out how to assign myself an avatar today. Wahh. Despite the fact I had signed up to WordPress a couple of years ago, my email and password wouldn’t work. I feel dumb about that.

    And I feel dumb that I don’t seem to be very effective in helping America get back on a better track. I am so sad and so tired these days. I don’t have so much youthful vigor any more, but I still have a brain. And I have strong opinions about what is right and wrong. I’m going to stay the course for ‘Right’ no matter what these ungodly people who have stolen America try to do to me.

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  18. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    I’m not advocating the removal of God from the conservative platform. Quite the opposite.
    The constitution establishes God as the creator to distinguish between the leftist belief that your rights are derived from man, and natural law that states your rights are God given.

    I’m advocating that politicians talk about THE CREATOR as much as possible in order for people to understand this important distinction between left and right.

    If you’re going to insist that these chats with America be framed through the lens of Christianity, you’re doing so at your own arrogant peril.

    You’ll lose elections, and you will be losing them with good people at your side who are right-wing but not necessarily Christian. (I sometimes fear that many people think this is impossible – to be conservative but agnostic, or secular.)

    Gay marriage can be argued without evoking Jesus.
    So can abortion.
    Evoke universal morality. Universal spirituality.
    If it can’t, then you’ve lost the argument.
    An appeal to the Bible as the be all and end all of your argument gets 3 points from the Amish judge. That’s about it.

    You think it’s rational that the law of the land be a theocracy using the Bible as its guide?

    I’m telling you that this is a huge turnoff to the electorate, and even to some Christians.

    I care little what the background of the original writer is. The writer was quoted because it raised an interesting premise – the right defines the creator as the God recognized by Christians. That is exclusionary. It just is. And it is unnecessarily so.

    To attack the writer’s background is as silly as when the left attacked Joe the Plumber for not being a plumber, as if that had anything to do with the issue Joe brought into the national spotlight.

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  19. bitterclinger

    December 4th, 2012

    kairn — go to http://www.gravatar.com

    Find some avatars you want to use and register your email there. That’s how I get mine to work.

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  20. Jethro

    December 4th, 2012

     
  21. Jimmy

    December 4th, 2012

    It seems to me that the concepts expressed in our Constitution by it’s Christian authors transcend even Christianity. They’re good enough for ALL religions except Islam, as far as I can tell. And it’s because they distill “inalienable rights” into legal precepts, i.e., Moral Law.

    The Republican Party used to be about “philosophy of government,” i.e., moral law But not lately.

    I don’t care WHAT religion you are – as long as you understand and support the principles in our Constitution.

    The Republican Party clearly no longer supports the Constitution. Just look at the Congressional voting record for the last 60 years. They helped pass EVERY statist bill that has led to our current morass.

    They might as well be Extraterrestrial Athiests.

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  22. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    @Kairn–

    Who cares about avatars? (Do you recognize the “sour grapes” theme, coming from this also avatar-less commenter?)

    As to your second paragraph, please don’t give up. I came across a Churchill quote recently that helps me, at least in the political arena:

    “Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts.”

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  23. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Joe didn’t bring up plumbing with Obama.

    How about we have the discussion that Conservatives are to racists. My point changes none. You are letting them direct the conversation.

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  24. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    America’s blind eye and apathy towards the horrific consequences of America’s godless immorality is astounding.

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  25. chiefillinicake

    December 4th, 2012

    My point wasn’t that we’re letting other people define our message for us. My point was that we’re stepping on our own units needlessly.

    If we’re going to administer a purity test for national elections, and then ignore the people who we aren’t voting for us already for the four years between elections, that’s fine. Let’s just cede his third term to Obama now.

    The question from BFH that prompted my response specifically addressed whether Republican’s high profile religious affiliations and tendency to get balled up in the weeds with creationist answers was costing us elections with those not specifically cut from our cloth.

    I feel that it’s hurt us, and needlessly so.

    But my larger point does indeed go to the fact that, pressed hard for an answer, the average Joe Blow, non-idealistic voter who isn’t supporting us can’t tell you, in one or two lines, what we’re even about. That’s just poor messaging, and more’s the pity considering the hundreds of millions recently spent on political messages.

    We ain’t getting it done nationally. State houses and Governorships are great, but they aren’t the ones who spent $6trillion the last four years, nor are they the ones poised to double this poisoned legacy now, are they?

    No, that would be the folks that kicked our guy’s asses.

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  26. chiefillinicake

    December 4th, 2012

    PS-BFH

    Thanks for posting me up there…I think!

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  27. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Chief, Obama (and the left) gets the low information presidential voter (in part) by giving away free shit with the blessing of the MSM. If we want to fight fire with fire, then we need to offer more free shit than they do…right?

    Being like them is not the answer.

    and there is no freaking “seperation of church and state”!!! You do know that right?

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  28. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    @Mary,
    I love Churchill quotes. The one you offered is so wonderful. I do not recall seeing that one before. Thank you.

    I am not giving up until the Good Lord calls me home. And I haven’t yet given up on my American home yet either. What an amazing land to have been born upon. What amazing people I have lived amongst. I cherish so many things about America that are worth preserving and fighting for.

    And that includes keeping a semblance of the Judeo-Christian values that did and should still run through our society. Multi-culturalism has been the death of this once great melting pot. Another thing I have a very strong opinion about. But will save that commentary for an appropriate thread.

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  29. Geoff C. The Saltine

    December 4th, 2012

    Chief I have not looked at any of the comments yet.
    So here we go.
    “At some level, though, it does beg the question…why do political parties exist? Why belong to one? And what are they fairly expected to achieve”?

    This is the nut of the problem is it not. We have two choices, because that has been the way it has been set up from the beginning going all the way back to Adam and Eve. # 1. We have to choose between what is Right and what will benefit you the most. # 2 The choice between good and Evil.
    # 3 All through out history people have made the wrong choice when we have come to that cross road.
    What they are to do is what is right for all, not what is right for the few .
    I believe that is what we are fighting for right now. We have to stand up for what our country was founded on or the whole thing will collapse.
    I know this is not a complete answer. Thanks for the Great Post.

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  30. Freeshiticus

    December 4th, 2012

    Simplify. Good or evil. Right or wrong. Life or death. Slave or free man.

    All the bad shit is on the left; that is what steers me to the right.

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  31. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Big Fur Hat, I gotta ask, who is telling you that the GOP is to Christian? I only hear stuff like that from my left leaning friends. I guess a better way to put it, is: Where does this meme originate? I do not see it in the conservative base. Are the independents saying this?

    Keep in mind, that Sarah Palin is an uneducated idiot…right?

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  32. chiefillinicake

    December 4th, 2012

    Hey, lets keep this church and state stuff professional. Like in the Constitution.

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  33. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    3 A voice cries out: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. 5 Then the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all people shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” 6 A voice says, “Cry out!” And I said, “What shall I cry?” All people are grass, their constancy is like the flower of the field. 7 The grass withers, the flower fades, when the breath of the Lord blows upon it; surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand forever. 9 Get you up to a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good tidings; lift up your voice with strength, O Jerusalem, herald of good tidings, lift it up, do not fear; say to the cities of Judah, “Here is your God!” 10 See, the Lord God comes with might, and his arm rules for him; his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.

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  34. chiefillinicake

    December 4th, 2012

    Where did I suggest being like them? I’m suggesting that our messaging blows…we don’t even try. Our last few presidential campaigns have been so muddled that even most of us couldn’t tell you what the main take-away should have been.

    We’re up against “Hope and Change” and “Yes We Can” and “Forward”. You might have to hold your nose a little and accept that for many, this shit works. Because it does.

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  35. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Huh?

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  36. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    I wrote this on the “other” thread, but it works here.

    To distill it-
    I am advocating for the right to certainly evoke the creator, if not only to educate the idiots that their rights are not granted by mortal men, but also to cull from a large pool of theology and philosophy to bolster their theories about civics, culture, society.
    When you start your argument with the Bible and end it with the Bible you’re getting uncomfortably close to the establishment of a state religion.

    Why is everyone beating around the bush? Just say it – you think it’s outrageous to suggest that the right adopt a POLITICAL platform of morality and ethics based upon the commonly shared rock solid, foundational beliefs that appear in all major faiths.
    It’s heresy to suggest that Christ not be the official mascot of the POLITICAL party of the right.

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  37. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    ^^^ignore that…bad timing on the post

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  38. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    again…^^^ignore that comment

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  39. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    @cheiffillincake: God is soverign, he allowed Obumbles to be in office again either for judgement on this nation or a revival. Everyone needs to be on their knees asking God to revive us, but I am afraid we are so far gone, that it will be judgement. New World Order and then rough times for our nations soverignty. Nothing on your thoughts or post but people are looking in all the wrong places instead of Up.

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  40. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    @Kairn–

    I do appreciate reading you posts. I meant it when I said to keep that up. We all need to get our support and encouragement from around us, esp. other people. I have been richly blessed and enriched by many, many comments and commentERS here on iOTW.

    @Melody–

    Most excellent and apt quotation, especially “The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand forever…”

    Thank you.

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  41. Rick

    December 4th, 2012

    Republicans might once again stand a chance in Federal elections if they could somehow resist the urge to hold every candidate up to the “Pro-Life” litmus test.

    Since Roe v. Wade came down, we’ve had how many nominally Christian presidents? And the R’s controlling Congress? Matter of fact, from 2004, through 2006, the R’s had the House, the Senate and the White House, yet no move was made to outlaw abortion. Why? Because all three groups were unwilling to spend political capital to move an issue that would be struck down immediately in the courts.

    Yet, every election, every Republican candidate must run the abortion rights gauntlet. And not a one can do it without resulting in the Ralph Kramden “Homina homina homina” response. After a while, it gets to be sad watching otherwise qualified candidates being shot down first by the Taliban Wing of the Republican party, then the survivors picked off by the MSM. Very simply, ABORTION IS NEVER GOING TO BE ILLEGAL IN THE U.S. AGAIN. Deal with it. And quit pitching a fit every time someone suggest making contraception and morning-after pills more readily available. Other people’s genitalia are not your property.

    Speaking of genitalia, whether the couple up the street is two tabs, two slots, or one of each and wants to call their relationship a “marriage” is also none of your business. Because you and your significant other are one of each does not give you the right to look down your nose at one of the other kinds of arrangements. Your arrangement is neither enhanced nor diminished by somebody else’ relationship.

    And yes, I remember those heady days of the “Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell/Focus on the Family/Dobson/Reed, etc. cabal.” They frankly scared the crap out of me. Seemed like their most pressing priority was to put the Ten Commandments on every flat surface. My question was, whose version, the Catholic, the Protestant or the Jewish version?

    The ones that have a hissy fit over removal of the Ten Commandments from the courthouse walls or nativity scenes from the courthouse lawns don’t seem to realize that if you open the door to any religion on the public square, you by default open the doors to ALL religions. Do you want The Five Pillars of Islam next to the Ten Commandments? Didn’t think so. And walking into a courhousee with the Ten Commandments on the wall or Roy’s Rock in the lobby makes me wonder if I’m going to be treated fairly unless I’m a member of your club.

    You want prayer back in the schools? Then start your own school regulated by your choice of religion. If you want your kid praying, then pray with them at home, don’t try to rope my kid in to your beliefs. When people insist on putting prayer back in schools, they automatically assume it’s going to be the same prayer used in their Little Church in the Wildwood. Again, you open yourself up to your prayer this week, moslem prayers next week, and Wiccan the week after that. Anything you do in this regard, the moslems are going to want a seat at the table. And when the second one shows up, they’re going to want to sit at the head of the table.

    It seems the Republican Party has split itself into the RINO and Taliban wings and both completely disregard the conservatives. That and the lack of spine 90 percent of the time have made me decide that somewhere else is where I wanna be.

    Don’t bother with “If you didn’t hate Jesus so much…” responses. I know and respect many fine Christians, and I don’t hate Jesus; but I despise his “followers” that use him as a bludgeon to try to tell me how to run my life.

    Whew.

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  42. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    Menderman asks – who is telling you the GOP is too Christian?

    Statistics.

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  43. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    And I wrote THIS on the “other” thread, too:

    No, BFH, I’m not beating around that bush. It’s too surface.

    [I'll allow myself one sidetrack point: "morality and ethics based upon the commonly shared rock solid, foundational beliefs that appear in all major faiths." What are the rock solid, foundational beliefs we share with Islam? Enough to support that POLITICAL platform you are suggesting? Not a chance, and you know it.]

    Here is part of my bottom line: Faith is far more important than politics, and far more encompassing. And that “large pool of theology and philosophy” you reference? I will not walk into that trap. And I don’t mean that it’s a discursive trap YOU are setting. It’s just a trap, period. A trap that’s been set for millenia, and has undoubtedly snared many.

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  44. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    BFH, I have not been to church for over 30 years. You still don’t see the big picture as I see it.

    IT IS THE LEFT THAT IS SAYING THAT THE GOP SHOULD DROP THE CHRISTIANS!!!!!

    Fuck them…don’t let the left dictate policy and set the agenda! Like Burr said, turn it back on them…ask them why they hate Christians!

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  45. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    what statistics?

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  46. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    Mary,
    Who is compelling the politician to cite Islamic verse? No one. Specious argument.
    In fact, the politician should take the opportunity to slam Islam. A twofer.

    Pointing at the existence of Islam in order to say “well, there’s that, so the right should just keep pumping Christianity” is ridiculous.

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  47. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    The moral laws of God are those laws which are based on God’s nature. God Himself is the absolute standard of righteousness. Since the moral laws reflect His nature and character, they are “immutable and irrepealable even by God Himself.”10 Since God’s moral nature does not and cannot change (Ex. 3:14; Isa. 41:4; Heb. 1:11, 12), the laws which are based on that nature are absolute. They are perfect, universally binding, and everlasting.

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  48. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    BFH–

    I didn’t say–or imply–either of those things. You know that, too.

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  49. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Rick, you suck as a human.

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  50. AbigailAdams

    December 4th, 2012

    Hey Chief — Great questions and conversation.

    I’ve read the quote many times in many books. It was Washington, Madison, Adams (can’t remember, maybe it was all of them and others) who knew that political parties would be a horrendous blight on The People.

    Anyway, I get what you’re saying out “church and state” but the only people who are really troubled by the state acknowledging the church are leftists. I know, because I use to be one. And because I thought I should know what the heck I was arguing against I decided to take a 9-month long Bible study — just on the Acts of the Apostles. Then I had to stay for the next seven years in order to study the other major books of the Bible.

    I was baptized when I was 14, and always considered myself a Christian, but it wasn’t until I did a formal study as an adult that I realized I had become a smorgesbord Christian, culling out anything that wasn’t part of my feel-good, broad reinterpretation of God’s word that I’d picked up in my twenties and thirties from former friends who are “unitarian universalists” or some rot.

    I think you’re right about making the tent bigger to accept those who are not Christian. There are people who, without the benefit of knowing God or Jesus, do have a sound moral code by which they live. There are plenty of other issues over which we have a much better story, not the least is that socialism/marxism/communism just doesn’t work.

    I think Whittle has it right, it’s not the message it’s the messengers. But even with the right messengers it’s going to be a lot of work going up against legacy media, Hollywood, public education and universities.

    Perhaps that’s why conservatives cling to their Bibles, because they know the family is the best antidote to leftists values. I know that’s how it is at our house. But if I were a single, never married mother with a pack of kids I probably wouldn’t care what they taught them in school because I’d just be grateful they were in school. That’s what we’re up against. And that’s why the left’s sloganeering is so effective. Young voters have no attention span and people with packs of fatherless children aren’t interested in anything more than three words.

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  51. Rick

    December 4th, 2012

    Menderman, this is exactly why I want nothing to do with a Christian church. I’m trying to talk about why Republicans keep losing elections and your your response is an ad hominem attack.

    Stop trying to shoot the messenger.

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  52. MN Patriot

    December 4th, 2012

    Believe in Christ is not Republican.
    It is American.
    We have lost our way as a country.
    I will not apologize for God.

    George Washington

    JUDGE; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; PRESIDENT OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; “FATHER OF HIS COUNTRY”

    You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are.

    While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.

    The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.

    I now make it my earnest prayer that God would… most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion

    Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854

    Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.

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  53. Stranded in Sonoma

    December 4th, 2012

    Speaking of genitalia, whether the couple up the street is two tabs, two slots, or one of each and wants to call their relationship a “marriage” is also none of your business.

    They can call it whatever they want. When the people vote and say only a tab and a slot can be “married,” that is what the legal definition is. And no liberal childish tantrum of holding breath and stamping feet will change that.

    If polygamists were not allowed to redefine marriage to suit themselves, why should homosexuals be allowed to?

    – Thomas Sowell

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  54. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    Well said MM Patriot, well said.

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  55. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Yeah, Rick, we could have some really good people in our party so long as they look the other way when folks kill their babies…

    Like I said, you suck as a human.

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  56. MN Patriot

    December 4th, 2012

    Thank you Melody.
    The first four lines are me, the rest is History.

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  57. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    @MN.. if more Americans knew their history and loved this country as you do. God Bless.

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  58. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    What statistics?
    Exit polling had huge voting blocs from other religions like Hindus and Buddhists (all of which are growing and important in America and are educated, affluent and otherwise conservative) that peeled off for Obama.
    Why?

    I maintain it is the exclusionary and arrogant stance of the Christian right who believe that the party belongs to them.
    I’m seeing it HERE on iOTW. And you ask for statistics?
    You’re a statistic.
    I’m sure people are pissed that I’m asking the right to focus more on a universal God and promote the basic tenets of good versus evil and freedom based on inalienable rights.
    That’s not enough, apparently, and any whisper of such a thing is heresy.
    Welcome to the Godless Leftist Utopia, courtesy of Christians, particularly the Christians who didn’t come out to vote for Romney.
    Shame on them.

    From FlashTraffic-
    In 2008, white, born-again, evangelical Christians represented 26% of the total vote for president, according to the exit polls.
    In 2012, white, born-again, evangelical Christians represented 26% of the total vote for president, according to the exit polls.
    In other words, we saw no change at all in the size of the evangelical vote, –no net gain, certainly no surge, no record evangelical turnout, despite expectations of this.

    What’s more, in 2008, 27% of the total vote for president was Catholic, according to the exit polls.
    In 2012, only 25% of the total vote for president was Catholic.

    With the most important election of our lifetime, with GOOD VERSUS EVIL on the line, Christians sat on their hands because Romney was a Mormon.

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  59. Rick

    December 4th, 2012

    (Straw man argument.)
    Mendelman, the R’s did it your way. And lost.
    NOW what do you think your chances are of getting abortion outlawed in your lifetime??

    BTW, I probably hate abortion as much as you do. But I realize that ending it is a “Bottom up” not a “Top Down” problem.

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  60. AbigailAdams

    December 4th, 2012

    @Rick:

    You wrote: “ABORTION IS NEVER GOING TO BE ILLEGAL IN THE U.S. AGAIN. Deal with it. And quit pitching a fit every time someone suggest making contraception and morning-after pills more readily available. Other people’s genitalia are not your property.

    Speaking of genitalia, whether the couple up the street is two tabs, two slots, or one of each and wants to call their relationship a “marriage” is also none of your business. Because you and your significant other are one of each does not give you the right to look down your nose at one of the other kinds of arrangements. Your arrangement is neither enhanced nor diminished by somebody else’ relationship.”

    Taking the first para: Yes, there are a lot of Christians who believe that abortion should not be legal, but I’m pretty sure that today’s conservatives (Christian and not) believe that it is the Left’s hypocrisy regarding “church and state” and the Left’s insistence that everyone pay for abortion and birth control. If the Left were the “church and state” purists they claim to be they would not allow the state to levy a tax/fine on Christians who regard life as sacred and a gift from God Almighty, to pay for abortions. You’re right, someone’s abortion is none of my business, so why is my business taxed/fined to pay for it?

    Second para: What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is none of our business. So why do they make it our business in our childrens’ classrooms, our city streets where they strut their assless leather breeches and nipple rings and overwhelm cities with demands for public nudity? I don’t care and I don’t want to know what my neighbors are doing regardless of their sexuality. It’s the old adage: “I don’t swim in your toilet, so don’t pee in my pool.” It is a fact, however, that the higher the threshold for moral and sexual depravity, the greater a society’s overall moral decay. How much do we tolerate before every town and village looks like the Tenderloin just because there seems to be a proclivity of exhibitionism in the so-called gay community?

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  61. Melody

    December 4th, 2012

    Fur, you know I love you but I believe that most believers even voted for Romney and mormons are not really true believers in the since they follow a man’s teachings from the book of Joesph Smith but we voted for him as he loves this country, I have read that even those who are on the street passing out bibles and trying to teach others of God’s love were removed by law enforcement, most recent case in Ventura Calif. this summer, evil is raining down and if we do not keep our light shining for Christ and obey his command to go out into all the world and preach the Gospel( the good news) that Christ died for them and loves them and wants them to have eternal life, than we disobey the Lord’s command. Those who have came here for a better life still need Jesus or the are eternally lost, live each and every one of us. So being a Christian makes us different than the rest as we are to imitate the Master, our Lord and Savior. He does not care if you were riased a Hindu or what color you are, he wants you to come to him, just as you are.

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  62. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    What we have at issue here is that our founding fathers never in their wildest imaginings envisioned the Judeo-Christian foundation they built our nation on being so thoroughly diluted by philosophies and religions other than Christianity and Judaism. Their world view revolved mostly around the land of their births (America) and Europe, which was also heavily influenced by a Judeo-Christian value system.

    I don’t think they could have ever imagined the huge influx of Hindus, Muslims, atheists, and whatever flooding into America to the degree they have in the last few decades. Thus they left us no instructions on how to handle this conundrum we are debating here today.

    We have been and are diluting as a nation, as a unified people. What we once thought of as some glorious melting pot is not holding water any longer. Embracing and catering to multi culturalism to the degree we see today has ruined America.

    How would Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson have answered a Hindu immigrants question about why the Constitution seemed to favor Judo-Christian values over Hinduism or what other -ism? Or why a particular political party’s platform was ‘too’ Christian for the sensibilities of a Hindu?

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  63. Geoff C. The Saltine

    December 4th, 2012

    Well Chief, you opened of a can of worms, Well done.

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  64. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Exit polls said Bush was to blame for the 2012 economy.

    Why did people think that?

    THE MSM!!!!

    Until you can agree that it doesn’t matter what message we have, if it is told by our enemy, we will lose.

    F&F doesen’t exist. Nobody knows or cares who Chris Stevans, Sean Smith, Glen Doherty or Tyrone Woods are. They should know and they would care if they were told….THE MSM instals our President.

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  65. MN Patriot

    December 4th, 2012

    @BFH, Are you saying that Republicans should acknowledge gods of other religions and say they are on equal standing with Our Father just to bring them into the political fold?

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  66. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Rick, the R’s are not loosing. They are winning, look down the ballot. My state is all R’s in control for the first time since the 1880′s! Yes, over a century since that happened! The D’s got the Oval office. Obama is not the King.

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  67. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    @Geoff
    I beg to differ. I don’t think BigFur opened up a can of worms. He asked a thought provoking question and we are all weighing in with our opinions in a friendly and mature manner. I have appreciated reading everyone’s submissions, including yours.

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  68. Rick

    December 4th, 2012

    Abigail you said “You’re right, someone’s abortion is none of my business, so why is my business taxed/fined to pay for it??”

    Exactly! I fully support court actions along this line. “Why am I taxed to support something that clashes with my sincerely-held beliefs?”

    As for the second para, I don’t have an answer for you. What they do in their own homes IS their business. And I feel sorry for someone that is so unhappy that they have taken something as wonderful as sex and destroyed and denigrated it by trying to out-outrage the rest of the population. I would argue that these aren’t the “real” gays, but are simply pathetic attention whores. Much like Fred Phelps and his merry band aren’t “real” Christians.

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  69. Kairn

    December 4th, 2012

    @Geoff,
    My apology. I realized I misread your statement.

    Chief did not open a can of worms!

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  70. AbigailAdams

    December 4th, 2012

    Karin, I know Geoff and he likes cans of worms. He meant that in a positive way.

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  71. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    I have my idealist side and my realist side.
    Ideally, Islam would be defined as a totalitarian terror organization and would be stripped of any religious standing in America.
    Christianity would be the dominant religion and nativity scenes would be displayed unmolested in the public square.

    Realistically? Unless we secularize our government we will one day be living under Sharia law.

    On abortion? Ideally abortion would not only be illegal, it would be identified as what it is, murder.

    Realistically? We need to murder even more people, until the only people left would be people who would never consider murdering their own baby.

    As you can tell, I’ve long given up on believing that the game should be played according to how you interpret God’s message.
    My God tells me that a little rain must fall.

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  72. Geoff C. The Saltine

    December 4th, 2012

    This country was founded on Christan values. When those are gone there will be no more America. We will be no better than any other God less country.
    All you have to do is look at the world that we live in. The U.N. is a God less group, how much good is it doing? No, we must have God on our side or we will fail as a country. Change our message yes, leave the creator out, No.

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  73. MN Patriot

    December 4th, 2012

    @Geoff C. The Saltine, Politics and Religion. It don’t get no better than this.

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  74. fullcirclethinker

    December 4th, 2012

    What a powerful back and forth on this subject! However, I might as well put my two cents worth in, even though it is waaaaay down the comments list.

    First off, my Jewish friend, who is as anti-Christian as you can get and is STILL my friend, made a statement prior to the election that went something like this:

    He said he didn’t believe Christians should be in government. At that revelation I asked him if he truly believed that Obama is a Christian. When he replied with a yes, I asked him why he would vote for him if he believed Christians shouldn’t be in politics. At that he claimed that I was twisting his words!

    This is a great example as to why the phrase “separation of church and state” is so vital to the left. It only works when it swings their way.

    One more thing while I’m at it:

    If we as a nation think we are some great thing, consider the book of Judges in the Old Testament. It covers around FIVE HUNDRED YEARS of history, charting the ebb and flow of the Jewish people. By comparison, we are but a pimple on the rear end of history!

    Maybe it’s time we get over ourselves!

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  75. MN Patriot

    December 4th, 2012

    @Geoff C. The Saltine, I would change one line of your last post. We are on God’s side not the other way around. Otherwise excellent.

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  76. Rick

    December 4th, 2012

    Mendelman, get back to me in two years and let me know how this works for you.

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  77. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Fur….has you view of abortion evolved in the past few years? I seem to remember you had a different stance? My sincerist apologies if I am wrong.

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  78. Menderman

    December 4th, 2012

    Rick, I don’t understand why people think conservatism is dead because we have a 2 term liberal president.

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  79. BigFurHat

    December 4th, 2012

    Are you saying that Republicans should acknowledge gods of other religions and say they are on equal standing with Our Father just to bring them into the political fold?>>

    They should talk about GOD, period. Leave the listener believing they are validating their God. They are POLITICIANS not evangelists.

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  80. MaryfromMarin

    December 4th, 2012

    I think more Christians sat on their hands because they allowed themselves be tricked by the despair-inducing chicanery of the media and the Left (basically synonymous groups).

    And, sadly, because they are unused to thinking of the eternal battle of GOOD VERSUS EVIL.

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  81. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    @Rick — We’re almost there.

    I was responding to your assertion that conservatives are railing against legalized abortion, when I believe they are overwhelmingly against paying for it. It would be a pipe dream at this point to expect abortion to be made illegal and I think most conservatives know this.

    I don’t think there’s any comparison to be made between gays who “show off” and so-called Christian sects who are zealots. One could probably count the zealots on both hands, but the numbers of gays who push their lifestyles and agendas are countless. In today’s ideological climate it is more common to hear a gay person giving a presentation for gayness at a high school assembly. You won’t find Christian zealots on the roster. And when a city elects a gay mayor it’s a major celebration. Can’t imagine a Christian zealot being feted in the same way.

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  82. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    BigFurHat, I read these discussions about the religious aspect and I am usually hesitant to comment. My wifes devout Catholic, I’m devout asshole. I read this stuff I keep getting visions of Mel Gibson in the Patriot. I am however not stupid and do believe the will end up in blood shed. It will not start nor end with the abortion issue. It will be spurred by religious freedom and taxation. Primarily taxation. Redistribution of wealth. The patriot act will soon seem real freaken unpatriotic. This country has a few problems.

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  83. BigFurHat

    December 5th, 2012

    Conservatism is not dead, as long as we can convince good people that conservatism doesn’t mean Christian or bust.

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  84. Melody

    December 5th, 2012

    I would not want to support someone like Keith Ellison that was sworn in on a quran, that was down right so wrong and shows how far we swayed from the principles of our faith.

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  85. MaryfromMarin

    December 5th, 2012

    BFH: “They should talk about GOD, period. Leave the listener believing they are validating their God. They are POLITICIANS not evangelists.”

    Whoa, what? Just say “God” and let the listener fill in the blank? Are you really saying that, BFH?

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  86. Nutjob

    December 5th, 2012

    IMHO, the GOP lost its autonomy because of the media and propoganda, plane and simple.
    Hell just look at what Barack did yesterday, used a campaign style message to bash and blame the GOP for the fiscal cliff. He knows and saw what works and was successful during not only his campaign but his whole existance.
    It doesn;t matter what his beliefs are, he’d be a Hindu bashing them evil publicans tomorrow if he thought he could get what he wanted.

    To me being a GOP voter is not a belief system or party. Its a moral obligation of what needs to be done, where we are headed, and whats wrong with the country.
    When the media defines you, and you allow it whether it be a christian, constitutionalists, preservationists, survivalists, or moralists…you’ve already failed by not fighting back.
    Until the media is held not only accountable, but displayed for who and what they are, things at this point won’t change the face of the GOP for anything less then being fanatical right wing obstructionists.

    Kind of why I come here, to expose these fucks. At times we might seem like we are beating our heads against the wall, but eventually morality supercedes immorality or theres a total collapse.
    Could we be at this stage? Who knows, but I’ll never submit, and hopefully at the end of it all a new rational full of common sense will emerge, regardless of party affiliation.

    Right now it doesn’t appear to be that way……no thanks to the media.

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  87. Geoff C. The Saltine

    December 5th, 2012

    Kairn. All is well. When things move fast its hard to keep up, these are the type of discussions that make IOTW great, something to sink your teeth into.

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  88. Menderman

    December 5th, 2012

    OK, I’m gonna ask again….just who in the hell in any kind of leadership position has said of the GOP “Christian or Bust”?

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  89. Immortal Fish

    December 5th, 2012

    I cannot grasp anyone’s rationale for staying home when Satan and Cain are on the ballot.

    I mean… if you think both are evil, one kinda rises above the other, yes? And then you should vote for the lesser, yes? Obviously not.

    It’s not unlike the 2008 election. I thought it was a choice between bleeding and hemorrhaging. So we decided to hemorrhage. Four years later, we doubled down on hemorrhaging.

    I’m not exactly convinced that religion is the sole culprit. I’m pretty sure the electorate simply decided to vote in more recess time and ice cream. Simple as that.

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  90. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    Mendelman, I don’t know that conservatism is dead, but I firmly believe the Republican party is going the way of the Whigs, especially since the GOP leadership insists on throwing us under the bus.

    And I don’t think conservatism is dead because we have a two-term liberal (actually uber-liberal) president. I’m not sure the country can survive his second term, let alone ever un-fuck what he’s managed to do in his first term.

    He’s destroyed the hopes of my children and robbed my grandchildren and the ones I looked to to stop it do nothing but bicker about secondary and tertiary issues that won’t matter.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, “Don’t like gays and abortion and uppity women? Don’t worry; when the moslems take over it won’t be a problem anymore!”

    What this country is right now is not the country I risked my life for for twenty-plus years.

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  91. Kairn

    December 5th, 2012

    @Nutjob
    You are so correct! It IS the corrupt media that has brought our nation to this rotten place!!!! We all need to cut the cable TV thread. Starve the damn beast.

    Menderman is correct in his assessments too.

    This has been a most enlightening topic of conversation today.

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  92. BigFurHat

    December 5th, 2012

    Menderman,

    My position on abortion has not evolved since I’ve started blogging.
    My answer is always the same.

    It is your right under the law to kill your kid. Have at it.
    If you need me to sugarcoat what you’re about to do in order for you to not be guilty or tormented for the rest of your life you’ve come to the wrong place.
    You killed your kid.
    Where I differ from, perhaps your position, I don’t know, is that I really really do not care if someone wants to kill their kid. I really don’t. I don’t have the capacity for that much empathy.
    I’m at the point where I encourage people to kill their kid.
    I ask them, “have you considered killing your kid?”
    It’s not very popular at parties.
    The only problem with my tack is that Muslims are not aborting their kids. So, math tells me that we are doomed as a nation unless we secularize. (Edit: Secularize the government, not the people, of course.)

    Perhaps this is what the left has been thinking all along, but they are too “tolerant” to say it out loud.

    Who knows?
    In politics you never can be sure what is up and what is down.

    What I do know is that conservatives will win elections when we focus on good versus evil, not Christians versus the rest of the religions of the world.
    We cannot keep the other religions out, and, unfortunately, the expansion of Christianity is occurring in the poorest of nations. And when they come here, money trumps religion.
    Jesus cannot beat Santa Claus at the polls.

    I know you probably hate what I’m writing.
    I hate what I’m writing.

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  93. Menderman

    December 5th, 2012

    Rick, we agree on most issues, and I don’t want to be mean…but your comment above struck me wrong. It is not in me to be able to simply ignore abortion. I should have chose my words better.

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  94. MaryfromMarin

    December 5th, 2012

    Writing reveals the soul. Many levels of the soul.

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  95. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    I don’t hate what you’re writing BFH.
    But is’nt it the secularists that appease the muzzies and give them standing?

    (I updated my comment, before I even read yours, for clarification. -bfh)

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  96. BigFurHat

    December 5th, 2012

    BFH: “They should talk about GOD, period. Leave the listener believing they are validating their God. They are POLITICIANS not evangelists.”

    Whoa, what? Just say “God” and let the listener fill in the blank? Are you really saying that, BFH?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    YES.
    Are you really saying that they should say Jesus?

    I ask because Menderman, in another comment, is insisting I tell him who in any position of leadership is saying Christian or bust?

    You seem to be outraged that a politician say God without clarifying that it be a Christian God.

    Are you typical or atypical? It’s important because we seem to be confusing our representatives.

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  97. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    Immortal Fish, you don’t need a religious creed to recognize Pure Evil.

    I’m not a herpetologist, but I can know a rattlesnake when I see it.

    @Kairn, yes it has been enlightening. And spirited. And entertaining.

    And all y’all are a pretty good bunch of a$$holes to have at my back when the balloon goes up.

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  98. Menderman

    December 5th, 2012

    It seems odd that somebody would want all the moral benifits of a Christion Nation and not want to label it a Christian Nation.

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  99. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    Mendelman, don’t worry about it; abortion is a very inflammatory issue for most people. I don’t know what the answer is; I’m not even sure there IS a right answer. I’m a man and won’t have to make that terrible decision for myself. I just know it’s not my privilege nor my obligation to tell someone they can’t have one. Or tell a third party they have to pay for it.

    On to something less controversial; the Second Amendment means that common people can have full-auto weapons and their own F/A-18′s, right?

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  100. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    @Rick, Right!

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  101. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    And JDAM’s and Polaris ICBM’s and… :)

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  102. Kairn

    December 5th, 2012

    @Menderman!!!
    “It seems odd that somebody would want all the moral benifits of a Christion Nation and not want to label it a Christian Nation.”

    Yes!!! Yes!!! You nailed it right there!!!

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  103. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    I prefer an F15 Strike Eagle myself.

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  104. MaryfromMarin

    December 5th, 2012

    BFH–

    Just saying “God” and letting the listener fill in the blank with whatever god he or she envisions is duplicitous. What part of that is not clear?

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  105. MaryfromMarin

    December 5th, 2012

    Oh, and BTW: Santa Claus may beat Jesus at the polls, but nowhere else.

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  106. Nutjob

    December 5th, 2012

    BFH, I couldn’t agree more, the media pushes this judgemental christian morality GOP twist more then the DNC does.
    If you want christianity to be your moral compass for voting direction, then fine. I have no problem with you or your decisions.
    I’m not the one who’ll decide anyones fate based on their decisions when their ticket is up.
    The media, DNC, and whitehouse, has not only worked to splinter the GOP, but labeled them as fanatics and believers of the boogeyman of which they hold no moral obligation to in the here and now anyways.
    So do we bow down? Hold to our religious beliefs, secular as a whole or morally as humans void of religious overtones?
    To me the outcome doesn’t matter, being that the media has already formatted and labeled our intentions whether they be real or unreal.

    Until ths propoganda war has a final outcome, defintions or defining the GOP doesn’t matter. The true decievers and destroyers are the Goebbels, to the DNC, its just one more of their tools to destroy and get what they want at any cost.

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  107. Kairn

    December 5th, 2012

    And once upon a time in America almost everyone who was born here or immigrated here had no problem publically telling any dipshit who bitched about America (being too Christian) that they were free to leave and not let the door hit them in the ass on their way out.

    Then the news media started portraying and promoting these schmucky people as heroes. They even got one of them elected as our president.

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  108. Jayne

    December 5th, 2012

    Who defends the child? If you take a hear no evil, see no evil attitude and justify it by saying it’s not my business, then who defends the child? Who speaks for those without a voice?

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  109. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    Benjamin Franklin

    Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

    I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

    I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

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  110. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    MN Patriot, okay, Navy vs. Chair Force!! Actually I don’t like the F/A-18 all that much; I’m more of an A-6, P-3 and A-3 kinda guy. Chuck didn’t run and hide every 1+30 because there were fighter pilots in the sky.

    And for you FaceBookers in the crowd:

    Please Share

    Seems a bunch of poor dumb asses got themselves crossways with a group of U.S. Marines…

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  111. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    You guys are nucking Futz. The revolution will not start because of abortion or religion. Maybe religious freedom. It will start because of monetary penalties for being successful, and redistribution of wealth. You can’t legislate morality. God and religion need to be left out of the debate with the enemy. They use it against us with the zombies. For the first time I’m feeling like the odd man out.

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  112. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    George Washington

    “Father of Our Country”

    While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?

    And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

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  113. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    @Rick, My absolute favorite is the low and slow A-10 Warthog.
    Gata love that GAU-8.

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  114. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    Bad Brad! Whirr you been all night??

    People will set their philosophies aside when their kids are hungry. The house is on fire and we seem to be arguing about the color of the drapes in the living room.

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  115. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    MN Patriot, oh yah,you betcha fersure. Wasn’t that the airplane the Air Force wanted to get rid of ’cause there’s no glory in bustin’ tanks?

    Groundpounders sure love them some close air support.

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  116. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    All: I read a very slim volume last year, “City of Man” by Micheal Gerson and Peter Wehner (Moody, 2010) I think everyone here will like to read it.

    Overleaf:

    “An era has ended. The political movement that most galvanized evangelicals for more than a quarter century, the religious right, if fading away. What lies ahead is unclear.

    Into this uncertainty, former White House insiders Michael Gerson and Peter Wehner call evangelicals toward a new kind of political engagement — a kind that is better both for the church and the counry, a kind that cannot be co-opted by either political party, a kind that avoids the historic mistakes of boththe religious right and the religious left.

    A product of the authors’ own wrestling wtih the complicated relationship between religion and politics, City of Man assesses the past, surveys the present, and deals with questions central to evangelicals’ future role, including:

    - How can religious people exercise influence while maintaining their integrity?
    - What tone should they be known for?
    - How should they think about the role and purpose of government?
    - Which causes and issues, both at home and abroad, ought to be part of their agenda?

    Incisive, bold, and marked equally by pragmatism (you’ll like that, BFH) and idealism, Gerson and Wehner’s book charts a new political future not just for civic-minded Christans and “values voters” but for the nation as a whole.”

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  117. Nutjob

    December 5th, 2012

    Jayne, I agree.

    But right now were fighting a media, dumbshit, numbskull war we are losing.
    Myself, I think on that issue anyone of the elected GOP should say say publicly, “they support a womens right to chose”. But when it comes down to voting pull the ole switcharoo.
    Being moral, christian or not, because of the evil media, is reversing any and all progress we have had against an immoral society intent on destroying any moral beliefs christian or nonchristian.

    Right now the intent is to never let us have a say so, ever again, which is tyrannical and most certainly a a nail in our countries coffin.

    If this and the current media tide isn’t reversed we are doomed. We can fight the good fight and be doomed, or fight the fight and win.
    Either way our intentions will be judged accordingly just and so.

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  118. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    @Rick, Turn up the volume.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAkzrxN5Jn0
    .

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  119. sybilll

    December 5th, 2012

    I had an epiphany today. All of this infighting will cease when the American people realize in 2013/14 what a shitwagon ObamaCare is, resulting in Democrats not being electable for at least a generation. SO, I am going to chill out.

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  120. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    Rick, I don’t know about you, I’m getting a massive fucking head ache. I hope somebody remembers to pick up a weapon while they are rubbing their rosaries. Cause that ain’t got shit to do with whats coming down. It’s about control people. They have steered you into their debate. Good luck, I’m headed for high ground.

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  121. Wyatt, Insensitive Progressive Jerk

    December 5th, 2012

    @ChiefIlliniCake: Oskee Wow Wow. You may also want to let people know you attended a fairly liberal university that (at least while I was there) focused on Keynesian economics. And despite those handicaps, you ended up on a conservative website.

    I like history, and in my view, after studying quite a bit of history, the absolute worst type of government is a theocracy. We laugh, point and gasp at countries governed by Islamic law, but nations governed under strict Christian doctrines haven’t really fared much better. Up until the time of Martin Luther, the Roman Catholic church was engaged in political (and sometimes military) wars with secular monarchs and with the Greek Orthodox church. Calvin’s Geneva was, by many accounts, a horribly repressing place to live, and England has a long and not-so-illustrious history of violent conflict between Catholics and Protestants (both of which, I am told, are Christian).

    Besides, what exactly is a “Christian?” Ms. Barnhardt is, I believe, a Catholic who not only has scathing things to say about some of the clerics in that denomination, but also intensely dislikes “Super Fun Rock Band Churches.” However, the members of the Super Fun Rock Band Churches also consider themselves Christian. For centuries, Lutherans and Catholics hated each other, even though Luther himself was a former priest and a traditional Lutheran service looks a lot like a Catholic service. I have seen fights over whether it is proper to baptize by sprinkling versus dunking, there are fundamentalists whose interpretation of the Bible is very strict, there are liberals whose interpretation of the Bible is very unstrict, and even within certain denominations there are sub-denominations based upon doctrinal differences. All Christians profess to believe in Christ, but sometimes the interpretation of what Christ said, or what He did, or what He was really trying to accomplish, or the proper way to follow Him is the subject of acrimonious debate even in the Christian community. It’s difficult to define exactly what a Christian is.

    That being said, I do want my politicians to have religion. Why? Because people who are religious have a moral code, if you will, that they at least pay lip service to, and in many cases try to follow (and frequently fail miserably, if my own experience is any guide). In Western society, and for most people, that moral code is based upon the Ten Commandments, and those simple rules have stood the test of time fairly well. Despite my belief that a theocracy is the worst form of government, the fact remains that basic religious principles have throughout history formed the building blocks of a successful society. I just don’t want the nuances or one-off doctrinal beliefs foisted on anyone under rule of law.

    So, in the realm of politics, where do I really stand on the “Christian issue?” I tend to agree with BFH – the Republican party should stress the positive aspects of religion without trying to be “Christian.” When the term “Christian” or “religious right” is used in the political context, many people automatically think of the Westboro Baptist people – and the vast majority of Christians aren’t really like that. Even though I am, and have been all of my life a political conservative, and even though I have been Christian for a long time, I don’t consider myself to be a part of the “religious right” and take the non-establishment language of the First Amendment seriously. There are Christian Republicans, but the Republic Party is not necessarily Christian.

    Finally, what is the alternative to scrubbing religion from politics? It is the current version of the Democratic Party – a party that does not believe in the sanctity of life, a party that does not believe in individual achievement, a party that has no definable moral code, a party that permits and encourages large segments of the population to merely exist and not contribute to society, and a party that believes in the supposed natural reason and goodness of man. And that last part scares the hell out of me.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +12

     
  122. Nutjob

    December 5th, 2012

    @Brad,
    Right now its a polethera of issues that could cause a revolution.
    But no matter the belief, its the Goebbelism wreaking the most havoc.
    Until its reversed or men with consciousness from within this destructive entity suddenly get enlightened or stop selling out america for monetary gain, or see their contribution which usually doesn’t happen with progs or liberalism until it hits home…..we’re heading for a massive shipwreck.

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  123. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    Nutjob, As usual everything you have written above in my opinion is true. You didn’t say shit about religion or abortion. So where’s the battle start? You do know, and I know.

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  124. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    @Wyatt — Well written. Thanks. Your last couple of sentences are the bedrock. Compare and contrast to the lineup at the D’s national convention this year. They even voted God out of their platform. Wow, it’s quite an exclusive club they got goin’ on there. God didn’t even make it in.

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  125. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    @BFH, Here’s one you might like.

    Muzzie’s view of jarhead justice.

    This video was recovered by US troops after insurgents fired rockets at thier base and recieved some very accurate artillery response.Good thing they set thier camera out of harms way or we wouldnt have this little gem.The first part was left so you can see where the rockets are shot from then you see the accuracy of the response.

    It’s slow till about 2:45, but then it gets real good.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCqU1RLvHc0
    .

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  126. Rick

    December 5th, 2012

    G’night y’all. I ain’t as young as I uster be.

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  127. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    That’s right! The D’s voted God out of their country club. So, BFH, how will “just” leaving the discussion at the word “God” change the minds of those who voted for the D’s despite their rejection of Him?

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  128. Kairn

    December 5th, 2012

    @Wyatt
    Thank you. That was a good read.

    And the Dems did boo God at their convention, didn’t they? Pretty scary to learn that near 1/2 the nation thought that was goll darn funny.

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  129. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    Even the most pious Rabbi believes.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYrMUCJQYQg
    .

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  130. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    Nutjob; (hardly)
    “Right now its a polethera of issues that could cause a revolution”

    The sooner, the better, let’s get it on. They get stronger as we sit here and discuss the peripheral. And that IS their plan.

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  131. Nutjob

    December 5th, 2012

    Great write Wyatt.

    Albeit Luthers dispute involved religion, but he like I believe most GOP voters want the same thing……… the truth.

    No thanks to the Guttenburg press, he pursued this truth into the printing of multiple lanuages to show all others the media propoganda war/stranglehold the Catholic church had on the everyday common citizens through midevil propoganda and deciept.

    Luther happens to be 1 of my heros, growing up lutheran, converting to baptist, and then leaving all organized religion entirely for the truth without organizational ties.

    I myself yearn for the same truth in modern day america, with or without religion we won’t get it, until the mistruth or should I say the Whitehouse internet Mistruth team is exposed.

    The only differance between midevil times and now are the means for delivery of this mistruth, of which the left has mastereed.
    Could or will it take another reformation/civil war or revolution to change the current course of the country? and at what price?
    Only God knows, but until we pull a Luther on the Goebbels, this could and has turned out to to be a reverse reformation.
    1 can only hope mankind sees the light before its too late and we all become victims.

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  132. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    “Yea, though I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil, for I am the meanest son of a bitch in the valley.”

    Thumb up +4

     
  133. MN Patriot

    December 5th, 2012

    Brad, the first time I saw that was on a zippo lighter my grandpa got in WWII.

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  134. Bad Brad

    December 5th, 2012

    MN Patriot, It’s SO awesome. Words to live by.

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  135. Nutjob

    December 5th, 2012

    @Brad

    The sooner, the better, let’s get it on. They get stronger as we sit here and discuss the peripheral. And that IS their plan.

    The problem being the law of the land. We have to abide by the constitution while they don’t.
    Being they have the white house, senate and the media, its like they have a majority.
    Myself, I have the same attitude at times….Lets just throw down and get it over with, with having said that we as law abiding citizens are the disadvantaged ones.
    In a war, the victor usually wins by advantage, not that human spirit/patriotism doesn’t have its advantages, but advantage would be a huge plus.
    The Goebbelism is the first battle we need to address and win.
    If we win that battle…..we win the war.

    1 of the issues that needs to be adressed are the institution/colleges/universitiess. Most of these shitholes are non-profit or not for profit….for tax purposes only.
    They need to be pursued for their tax exempt status.
    if they are tax exempt then charges needs to be brought up on each and everyone that preaches. teaches/ or pushes their own political agenda.
    They can’t hide behind political freedom of speech and then claim to be not-for profit while pushing a partyy affiliated agenda…its illegal and ball-less Boehner and the GOP needs to look into it.
    It would be a huge start in this party war.

    IMHO, the media asskicking is where this war could start and end rather quickly, if the powers that be grew a pair and at least started the interregertories.

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  136. BigFurHat

    December 5th, 2012

    Abigail,

    Right now the left is the anti-God party.

    The right is the Christian party.

    The right should be the God party.

    Filling this void that the left created is sufficient enough to recruit the God-fearing into the tent, unless, of course, you insist on making it a Christian-only tent, which is really, really stupid to do politically.

    We are talking about a POLITICAL PARTY.
    Certainly a candidate can be a Christian. Does the PARTY have to be Christian?
    That, in my opinion, is political suicide.
    And that opinion, in no way, shape or form is a direct assault on Christianity, unless of course Christians are angling for a Christian theocracy.
    I would draw the line there.
    Don’t Tread On Me. Remember that?

    Thumb up +5

     
  137. Frosteetoes

    December 5th, 2012

    Why was my post deleted from this conversation?

    Thumb up +1

     
  138. Mr Happy

    December 5th, 2012

    BFH, I say you are being too kind to the left.
    They are not anti-God, they are anti-Christian under the guise of being secular.

    Huge difference

    Thumb up +8

     
  139. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    Mr. Hat, I understand exactly what you’re saying and I don’t disagree, I just don’t know how one takes Christ out of the narrative when, as history records, it was Christ who was the impetus for the idea that all men are created equal. Under the Hebrew God, pre-ascension “The Law” for Jews operated almost identically for them as the law today operates for secularists. The Law was codified to such an extent that many of the Jewish biblical arguments are still unresolved. But my point here is that The Law existed outside the individual and attempted to regulate peronal behavior in the same way that the law attempts to regulate personal behavior today. Without a personal God, made possible through a personal redeemer, Christ, humanity must rely on a theocracy to interpret and administer The Law. There is no indwelling Holy Spirit to guide and redirect our (individual) fallen nature. There is no *collective* salvation. Not to be cocky, but the whole Jesus thing is probably as grass roots as it gets.

    I do think there is a way for conservatives/Republicans to advance our platform in an engaging manner that can point to the religious underpinnings without turning it into a “get baptized or get out” proposition. But if one wants to galvanize the right against their cause all they have to do is tell them to give up Jesus Christ. I think such a demand would come off as asking them to commit apostasy.

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  140. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    …Also, I don’t believe for a minute that the GOP lost because Christians didn’t vote for Romney. I believe the election was rigged. David Axelrod telegraphed this loud and clear in an interview with Chris Wallace a week before the GE. The Left stole the election through voter fraud.

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  141. chiefillinicake

    December 5th, 2012

    Sorry…I’m under the weather this week and ran out of gas last night right after Menderman told me I was stupid.

    So what did I miss?

    Thumb up +3

     
  142. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    Chief — Sorry you’re not feeling well. This is definitely a conversation that should continue. From there the brainiacs here should posit some solutions, don’t you think?

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  143. Menderman

    December 5th, 2012

    Chief, you said:

    “There’s a separation of church and state for a reason.”

    Show me that phrase in the Constitution and I will apologize.

    I hope you feel better soon.

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  144. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    @Menderman — You’re right, there is nothing in the constitution that prohibits the church from engaging with the state. The church/state thing is so that the state does not bring into being a “Church” or infringe the Peoples’ right to freedom of their religion. It’s because of the true interpretation of the constitution that muslims are able to advance their cause of sharia in the U.S. courts.

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  145. BigFurHat

    December 5th, 2012

    Abigail,

    If you read my posts I do not advocate for never mentioning Christ. It’s Christ ONLY that I think is a bad strategy moving forward.

    And Romney received LESS of a Christian vote this year than McCain in 2008.

    Christians were part of the problem. For a group that thinks of themselves as owning conservatism and being anti-left, they sure disappointed.

    How in the world can we move forward claiming that conservatism is somehow intermingled in the DNA of Christianity and vise versa when we can’t deliver a solid Christian voting bloc?

    It’s a political loser. Time to jettison it and talk about all faiths equally.
    Disagree all you want.
    Call me a heretic.
    Call me the enemy.
    I’m trying to win elections and Christians are bitterly clinging to a notion that is going to get worse and worse each election cycle as more and more non-Christians overwhelm the electorate.
    The time to proselytize is not on the stump.

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  146. jus tryin to help yo

    December 5th, 2012

    “That’s right! The D’s voted God out of their country club”

    hey, Abs, forgive me, but i happen to have experienced a very rare confluence of events during the D convention

    just after their conevention, i saw the vid of the vote, the revote, and the BOGUS accounting of the cacophony — it was overwhelmingly the muslim representatives on the floor — as they were TEN percent of the reps on the floor

    within minutes of viewing the Dcon video, i somehow got to a vid of (arab Christian) jim zogby (brother of john, the pollster) – he was extremely proud that he got a lot of his muslim friends in the the convention as reps… that’s as far as i can remember — but, was there a conspiracy to ‘overwhelm the system’ AGAINST the ‘G-d in the platform’ AND the ‘we are Friends of Israel’
    maybe an hour later, i saw a vid of dick durbin say vehemently that, ‘oh course we have G-d in the platform if you guys are trying to push an agenda that we don’t, the democrat party absolutely does have G-d in the party platform

    sorry, but i couldn’t begin to help ya find and correlate the vids – i think i read several posts about jim zogby and some of his ‘seemingly internationalist’ philosophy

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  147. Menderman

    December 5th, 2012

    Big Fur Hat, are you talking numbers or percentages? Take a look at this:

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Menderman/289575117762761?sk=photos_stream#!/photo.php?fbid=442276959159242&set=pb.289575117762761.-2207520000.1354726124&type=3&theater

    It is interesting that Bush got a higher percenage of the Mormon vote than Romney did. These numbers show an increse in the Christian vote for Romney, and the Jewish vote as well.

    Again, the basis for this argument comes from the left, not the right. It is a trap set by the left to dismantle the Republican base.

    Thumb up +4

     
  148. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    BFH — I hear you loud and clear. I don’t think you’re the enemy or that you are a heretic. If you’d read the first line of my last post it reads, “I completely understand…”

    There are some things that haven’t been stated here regarding Christians, politics and voting and maybe they offer some clues about their habits in addition to any polls that show their recent voting record in the 2012 GE. Though I would question any polling about Christians that I would question about polls generally.

    I do disagree that Christians are “bitterly clinging to a notion..” I don’t think they are bitterly clinging to anything. I do think they are individually turning to God for hope, salvation and mercy against the tryanny of a Godless politic and praying for the victory of God over evil in this country and the world.

    But to get back to your point: I have to agree with many here who point out that the negative portrayal of Christians is the work of the Left and their media. Just as the old media and Leftist pols labeled the tea party as racist, so too does the Left label Christians as theocrats who are just champing at the bit to burden women with unwanted pregnancy, isolate gay people like lepers and make everyone pray in school. This war on Christians is being waged by cultural marxists who want to eradicate God and Jesus Christ because they know they must if they are to change the prevailing political ideology of this country from Republic to national socialism.

    It’s no fun for conservatives that the Left get all the easy ideological issues and we get stuck with the boring stuff like economics, the history of the evolution of human thought and the history of the making of the United States. All those dull facts, figures and dates. We have to read thick, dull texts with no illustrations and they get through life reading graphic novels and swapping playlists on their smart phones. We have to write essays and they get a box of crayons that can’t hurt them if they happen to eat them.

    How do we reconcile that — for starts?

    Thumb up +4

     
  149. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    @Just Trying to Help You — Thank you! It seemed plain to me, too, that it was usurption on the floor, but the chair did ratify the vote without a count so it must have been amenable to the DNC and their platform, right?

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  150. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    Here are a couple more resources for those who like to read:

    Hillsdale College has a free publication (it’s online, too) called “Imprimis”. Their 11/12 edition is titled: “Individual, Community, and State: How to Think About Religious Freedom”. In that essay the author, Matthew J. Franck refers to the writer Richard John Neuhaus, who had this to say about the role of the state in matters of religion (as an argument against obama’s WH and the SCOTUS):

    “Here we see one of the characteristic moves of the modern secular state: the effort to the vital institutions of civil society aside–in this case, its religious communities and the unique role they play in the lives of citizens. Richard John Neuhaus understood this nearly 30 years ago in “The Naked Public Square: “Once religion is reduced to nothing more than privatized conscience, the public square has only two actors in it–the state and the individual.” And he added that “a perverse notion of the disestablishment of religion leads to the establishment of the state as church.”

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  151. AbigailAdams

    December 5th, 2012

    “…the effort to push the vital…”

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  152. ChiefIlliniSick

    December 5th, 2012

    The separation of church and state is more of a custom, really. Mostly a good one, if you’ve ever encountered a theocracy.

    Remember what the bible says about forgiveness?

    It’s for it!

    Thumb up +2