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Who Gave The Order?

Home - by - October 28, 2012 - 16:00 America/New_York - 67 Comments

The Flames Of Benghazi Will Burn Through The Horse Hair


by sundancecracker from The Conservative Treehouse

[snip]

Those of you who are following this story intently know now why the obfuscation and distraction was needed.   It was President Obama who maintained operational control during the attack at the Benghazi Embassy Consulate and CIA Annex.

When House Intelligence Committee member Jason Chaffetz went to Libya he was accompanied by Africom Commander General Carter Ham.   Four Star General Ham is the commander of the entire African Theater.   Anything involving the U.S. military, or U.S. military operations in Libya falls under his command.   The only person higher than him for incidences within that field of operations is the Commander In Chief – President Obama.

When Jason Chaffetz specifically asked General Ham if he had a ready force who could have responded to the event General Ham replied:

“Yes, however, we were not asked to”…

(Interview video 10/27/12 @16:25 min mark)

Understand the significance of this statement.   If Africom commander General Ham was “not asked to”, it can only mean one thing.   There is only one person higher than him in the “African Continent Theater” operational chain of command.

That person is President Obama.

This response by General Ham means the White House was in control of the command response.   If the White House WERE NOT, or COULD NOT, take the command response control authority, for whatever reason, then General Ham would be the one in charge.   He wasn’t.

All decisions not to send help to both the Consulate and the Annex compound were directly from the White House, and more specifically the Commander In Chief,  President Obama.

[snip]

Read the entire EXCELLENT article here.

.

» 67 Comments

  1. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    General Ham received the order to “stand down.” His response was to say “screw it, I’m going to help anyhow.”

    http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/p/37144547/Interesting-Rumor-Concerning-General-Carter-Ham-and-Stand-Down-Order.aspx

    Within 30 seconds to a minute after making the move to respond, his second in command, General Rodriguez, apprehended General Ham and told him that he was relieved of his command…
    On 18 October 2012, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta announced that General Rodriguez will take General Ham’s place as the head of AFRICOM.
    http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=5139
    General Ham has been fired for defying the National Command Authority on Benghazi.

    Noe I wonder if if you will speak out.

    It’s pretty clear that the military needs feedback from Washington because it cannot on their own say-so cross an international border for a hostile mission without an order from the National Command Authority, and that means the President.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +13

     
  2. Death_By_Farts

    October 28th, 2012

    I’ve always thought that the Jackass is the most appropriate mascot of the Democrat party.

    -It’s lazy and doesn’t like to work.

    -It wines and complains all the time.

    -You have to push it or whip it just to get it to do something usefull.

    -It’s laughably funny-looking.

    -It has to be taken care of like a sheep, and fed all it’s life (unlike the elephant, who can survive on it’s own).

    Thumb up +5

     
  3. Irish

    October 28th, 2012

    May Obama and his cohorts burn in hell for this. Vote Romney on November 6th, end the error

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +28

     
  4. Plain Jane

    October 28th, 2012

    Link won’t load.
    _______

    Sorry! Fixed the link – c

    Thumb up +7

     
  5. Irish

    October 28th, 2012

     
  6. Hillbilly Lawyers

    October 28th, 2012

    thanks Irish

    Thumb up +6

     
  7. Plain Jane

    October 28th, 2012

    Thanx Irish

    Thumb up +4

     
  8. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    What I don’t understand yet is that a SEAL was “painting” a target on the top of the CIA compound. So that would imnply that thethe weapons system/designator was synched, right? Which means that the AC130 was on station, but Panneta denies it.
    If the AC130 never left Sigonella that means that it was a Predator that was filming the whole thing, right? Are Predators always armed?
    We know for sure that if that SEAL was actively “painting” a target, then something was on station to engage.
    And the decision to stand down goes directly to the President.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +14

     
  9. Irish

    October 28th, 2012

    At this point I don’t think Panneta can be trusted, no more than Obama can

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +20

     
  10. Hillbilly Lawyers

    October 28th, 2012

    Impeach the traitor. Life in prison. No prayer mat.

    No matter what Hussein “Benghazi” 0bama says, these words must never be forgotten: “Yes, however, we were not asked to”…

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +14

     
  11. cfm990

    October 28th, 2012

    Tom Clancy, couldn’t make this up. We, as a free people, may have to again determine our destiny. The Question is. Do we have the resolve?

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +21

     
  12. Tim

    October 28th, 2012

    That BO gave the order to “stand down” is beyond speculation – “WHY?” is the only relevant question.

    Barnhardt posits the notion that BO is actively assisting the Caliphate and that it was necessary to kill Stevens to further that treason.

    The GOP needs to resist chasing shadows and delve into the heart of the matter.

    Thumb up +8

     
  13. Hillbilly Lawyers

    October 28th, 2012

    If the politicians on our side had any balls, 0bama would be locked up by now. How bad does it have to get before they act? We could lose the entire country with that idiot in power.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +14

     
  14. Unneutral

    October 28th, 2012

    Makes it easy to speculate that the RINOS love Obama as much as the libtards.

    Thumb up 0

     
  15. Grandpa

    October 28th, 2012

    @Tim – The “why’s” are in this report, originally from CFP this morning.

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/10/28/benghazi-trail-truth-and-treason/

    Thumb up +3

     
  16. J Frank Parnell

    October 28th, 2012

    Killing Americans by proxy is what the Left does, it was (and is) to be expected. Think abortion, rationing, 9/11 weakness, victim disarmament, 100 million dead in 20th century communism.

    A sophomoric, transparent coverup is ongoing but you know it really doesn’t have to be professional, or even plausible. Think how well a suppression of Benghazi encourages and expands the Left. That’s real power. You know thatis the tyranny we face.

    Think of the havoc under an unrestrained four more years.

    Thumb up +2

     
  17. Corky

    October 28th, 2012

    Not only was General Ham relieved so has RADM Gaouette commander of air strike force fleet in the Persian Gulf. Coincidence?

    Thumb up +9

     
  18. Menderman

    October 28th, 2012

    I wonder if this is related:

    “In an unusual move, the Navy has replaced an admiral commanding an aircraft carrier strike group while it is deployed to the Middle East. The replacement was prompted by an Inspector General’s investigation of allegations of inappropriate leadership judgment.”

    “A Navy official familiar with the circumstances of the investigation said it involved allegations of “inappropriate leadership judgment” and stressed it was not related to personal conduct.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/navy-replaces-admiral-leading-mideast-strike-group-because-of-ongoing-investigation/

    Thumb up +5

     
  19. Plain Jane

    October 28th, 2012

    The zero in chief has been spending down our military and the morale of the committed soldiers like a drunken dope fiend spends on his habit.

    Thumb up +3

     
  20. Plain Jane

    October 28th, 2012

    oops,
    This is what the know-nothings who voted for zero deserve….but hey, we don’t.

    Thumb up +3

     
  21. gorgo

    October 28th, 2012

    “It was President Obama who maintained operational control during the attack at the Benghazi Embassy Consulate and CIA Annex.”

    I still don’t understand why he would. It’s not like he planned on ever sending in fire support to back up the SEALs and rescue the staff, so he had no opportunity to play hero for the press just before the election (a pony you know they’d be riding at this very moment if he had told our military to rain Hell itself upon them).

    So what am I missing here? WHY would O himself maintain control?

    Thumb up +2

     
  22. dba_vagabond_trader

    October 28th, 2012

    Gross dereliction at best treason at worst. Top to bottom.

    Thumb up +5

     
  23. MaryfromMarin

    October 28th, 2012

    Thank you, @Grandpa. The ongoing reports at CT have been extremely informative.

    Thumb up +4

     
  24. David Kramer

    October 28th, 2012

    Your links are not working………..

    Thumb up 0

     
  25. MaryfromMarin

    October 28th, 2012

    @DavidK–

    Check the link in Grandpa’s post, above–just worked for me.

    Thumb up +1

     
  26. Zonga

    October 28th, 2012

    Why are jug ears and Valerie Jarrett still in office?

    Thumb up +5

     
  27. Libra

    October 28th, 2012

    This is an impeachable offense. Wonder how much gonads congress has?

    Thumb up +6

     
  28. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    When the Obama Régime discovered that thousands of MANPADs had “disappeared,” it turned around and stuck a LOT of cash in what amounted to a poorly guarded CIA outpost-cum-”safehouse” and it tried to buy those weapons back. This CIA “annex” containing both weapons and money was obviously a high-value target.

    …there was a CIA post in Benghazi, located 1.2 miles from the U.S. consulate[MAP], used as “a base for, among other things, collecting information on the proliferation of weaponry looted from Libyan government arsenals, including surface-to-air missiles”

    http://www.businessinsider.com/us-syria-heavy-weapons-jihadists-2012-10

    Here, it is important to understand that Ambassador Stevens, Sean Smith, Glen Dougherty and Tyrone Woods were not killed at a consulate office in Benghazi.

    They died at one of the largest CIA operations centers in the Middle East, which was located in Benghazi and served as the logistics headquarters for arms and weapons being shipped out of the post-Qaddafi Libya.

    http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/50586

    Thumb up +3

     
  29. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    map of the consulate and the CIA annex
    http://cryptome.org/2012-info/cia-benghazi/pict17.jpg

    Thumb up +1

     
  30. Mr.Pinko

    October 28th, 2012

    I know the story, you know the story, Fox News viewers know the story – but go to the street – to the “Independent” voters – they DO NOT know the story!

    The media is protecting Obama.

    Thumb up +8

     
  31. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    “The media is protecting Obama.”

    But we already that. So what? Let’s try to understand what happened.

    Was Gen. Ham told to stand down and not send an AC130? Or was the “stand down” order sent when the drone or the AC130 was synched with the SEAL guy on the roof of the CIA compound?

    Thumb up +3

     
  32. Buffalobob

    October 28th, 2012

    “and more specifically the Commander In Chief, President Obama”. Actually there is on more person higher up in the obama regine. Valerie Jarrett>

    Thumb up +2

     
  33. Chuck U Farley

    October 28th, 2012

    I don’t think Barghazi Obama gave the order to ‘stand down’. I think Penetta did.

    Barghazi gave NO order. He gave no order to go in or stand down. He went to bed & slept the sleep of the innocent knowing his hands weren’t on it and he could deny, deny, deny.

    …it’s all ‘plausible deniability’ and ‘optics’ to these scumsuckers.

    Thumb up 0

     
  34. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    “I don’t think Barghazi Obama gave the order to ‘stand down’. I think Penetta did.”

    Irrelevant, since

    directions for military operations emanate from the National Command Authority, a term used to collectively describe the President and the Secretary of Defense.

    http://www.defense.gov/about/dod101.aspx

    It’s the same.

    Thumb up +1

     
  35. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    Besides:
    Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer said tonight that his sources tell him that Obama was one of the people in the room watching the Benghazi attack go down
    http://www.therightscoop.com/lt-col-tony-shaffer-my-sources-tell-me-obama-was-in-the-room-watching-benghazi-attack/

    Thumb up 0

     
  36. Plain Jane

    October 28th, 2012

    @ Irish

    Check out Panetta’s background and his ancestral associations.

    Thumb up 0

     
  37. Chieftain

    October 28th, 2012

    I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but in the absence of any other answers…

    What if there is clear evidence that someone other than the President, Tom Donilon or Valerie Jarrett for example, illegally and unconstitutionally invoked Presidential authority to reject any military intervention, possibly resulting in the immediate relief of General Ham in AfricaCom for example; all before the President actually bothered to get off of his narrow ass and actually get down to the situation room in person.

    What if by the time he bothered to get personally involved people were already dead, buildings were on fire and they needed a story that would not embarrass Barry or endanger his reelection, and quick. Hence the speedy decision to blame a YouTube video for some kind of “spontaneous demonstration” which is a bit of a stretched but accurate metaphor for “surprise attack”.

    This whole thing stinks worse and worse with every new revelation and in the absence of any other evidence I think my idea is about as accurate as anything else I am reading. Bob Gates warned Obama twice about Donilon and I haven’t trusted that sneaky sonofabitch ever since. Gates warned Obama that Donilon would be “a fucking disaster” as National Security Director, and told Donilon he should STFU on foreign policy. Tom Donilon has always had a reputation as a lying weasel and he is in much too senior a position for his experience and professional temperment. I would not put it past him to have exceeded his authority during the Benghazi attack and his actions were what he perceived he was directed to do by the President. I give it good odds as well that you can substitute and/or include Valerie Jarrett in the scenario I just laid out, and still be just as accurate.

    I’m worried about what else is out there. I worry what kind of damage these people have done and how long it is going to take to clean up the bodies before it is all over.

    Thumb up 0

     
  38. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    is the video filmed by the drone available?

    Thumb up 0

     
  39. Chieftain

    October 28th, 2012

    Supposedly all of the video would or should be available by now.

    Keep in mind that it took 8 days for President Bush to sign the Congressional resolution granting him the authority to go after the Taliban in Afghanistan. The first B-52 rolled on target on October 8th, and American troops were on the ground 12 days later.

    Nobody should buy this “investigation” BS. All of the facts are well known, the only thing that matters now is getting Bam reelected “by any means necessary”.

    Thumb up 0

     
  40. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    The ex-SEAL had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a gunship or a Predator drone.

    The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours — enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive. Fox News has also learned that two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them Delta Force operators.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/26/cia-operators-were-denied-request-for-help-during-benghazi-attack-sources-say/

    Only two places could have called off the attack at that point; the National Command Authority or AFRICOM.

    Thumb up +1

     
  41. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    Thank you Chief.

    I try to order all the data, and it is quite confusing.

    Thumb up 0

     
  42. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    Tell me if I’m wrong:

    – we know there was a drone or a gunship filming the whole thing
    – but we don’t know if it’s was a Predator or a AC130.

    – We know that Gen Ham was mobilizing, but we don’t know if the order to stand down happened when AFRICOM asked Washington for a permission to cross an international border for a hostile mission.

    – This was not a simple Non-combatant Evacuation Operations. General Ham needed permission to from the National Command Authority, since no General nor Admiral would order the Marines ashore, or a Delta raid, or even an F-18 low-level supersonic flyby. Not even the State Secretary can make that decision. Only the NCA can authorize a cross-border hostile mission, guns clear.

    Thumb up 0

     
  43. Bad Brad

    October 28th, 2012

    Dagny, It was called off at the freaken White House. And that’s where it happened. Reread this,

    AC-130U Gunship was On-Scene in Benghazi, Obama Admin Refused to Let It Fire (Updated)

    more importantly open the links. Especially this one.

    http://www.blackfive.net/
    /
    These guys are the shit.

    Thumb up +1

     
  44. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    when folks talk about “Specter”, could that include an armed drone, or is it limited to gunships?

    Thumb up 0

     
  45. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    yes Bad Brad, I’ve read it all. BLACKFIVE bookmarked, thanks to you.

    I know it was called from the WH, but I want to speculate WHEN?

    When an ambassador is under attack, the default order is an IMMEDIATE rescue. An in-extremis force is going right away to the rescue, triggered by a code word like Flash Traffic.
    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/10/26/are_some_in_the_chain_of_command_still_haunted_by_carter_s_failed_rescue_in_1979

    I want to know if Gen Ham was able to follow protocols, and send an AC130 from Italy.

    I want to know if the order to stand down happened when the SEALs were painting targets from the rooftop, or if it was before, so that no gunship flew to the rescuse, only a unarmed drone.

    Thumb up 0

     
  46. Bad Brad

    October 28th, 2012

    Dagny: Spectre is a Ac 130 with current generation weapons systems on board. They had a version back in the day during Viet Nam that was called Puff The Magic Dragon. Spectre is specific to a state of the art flying gun platform. Drones are something totally different.

    Thumb up +1

     
  47. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    OK, that nails it, I should think:

    One of the former SEALs was actively painting a target. So something, a gunship or a drone, WAS ON STATION.

    A ground laser designator is not a briefing pointer laser. You do not “paint” a target until the weapons system/designator is synched; which means that a gunship or a Predator drone was on station.
    If the AC130 never left the Sigonella Air Base, as Penetta says, that means that the drone that was filming the whole thing was armed. If that SEAL was actively “painting” a target; something was on station to engage.

    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/10/bigger-than-watergate-proof-that-the-president-is-lying-about-benghazi.html

    Thumb up +1

     
  48. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    Thanks Bad Brad.

    I personally think the biggest loss to the US is the CIA case files in the safe house. e.g. the bin Laden raid in reverse. Apparently we lost the names of the folks who were assisting us in the recovery of 20000 MANPADs. And 2 SEALs.

    20,000???????????????????

    Any source for that number. MANPADS are fucking dangerous.

    Thumb up +1

     
  49. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    One of the SEALs was on the roof of the building painting a target with a laser expecting a drone or a gunship to engage. What the SEAL failed to understand is that the drone he knew was flying above him was in fact the asset of the very people who ordered the strike, and that they were back in Washington watching via that drone-cam, cooly waiting for him, the ambassador and the other assets there present to die.

    http://barnhardt.biz/

    Thumb up 0

     
  50. Bad Brad

    October 28th, 2012

    Dagny, From what I’m getting out of this, either there was a gun ship circling above or an armed drone that told the Security detail to light the target up, they called for permission to fire and was denied permission at least twice. I heard today that they found one of the security detail (ex seal) slumped over his machine gun. Some pussy some where needs to swing. I think I know who that person is.

    Thumb up +2

     
  51. Plain Jane

    October 28th, 2012

    _No Easy Day_ by Mark Owen gives a perspective of the Seals that all the Thor, Flynn and Clancy books haven’t given. Not sure if it’s the difference between fictionalized Seal activity and the real thing or what it is.

    However, after reading (actually audio)it, I have a more mature perspective of Seals and the people who control them.

    I know this sounds off-topic, but somehow, my little brain makes a close association.

    Thumb up +2

     
  52. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    This is no Puff The Magic Dragon

    Thumb up 0

     
  53. Moe Tom

    October 28th, 2012

    excer,an from article by Greg Neubeck, Ret. Col. USAF.
    “Military Commanders had pre-positioned rescue assets in anticipation of’execute’ orders from the Commander in Chief. An order that was destined not to come. In a 5-O’Clock pm meeting in the WH with the VP and SecDef in attendance while monitoring the live-feed from Benghazi, a dithering Obama,an individual devoid of any core value, chose to sacrifice the lives of the four Americans in preference to the tarnishing of his campaign narrative that he had vanquished al Qaida. Obama besmirshed/defiled the Presidency with an odious blemish that elipses any event in living history.” Greg Neubeck.

    Thumb up +4

     
  54. Bad Brad

    October 28th, 2012

    Dagny. Here’s the business end. I had some asshole troll telling me how inaccurate and indiscriminate these thing were. What an asshole. Here’s the business end.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut8Ag-98HZw
    /

    Thumb up +2

     
  55. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    wow, nice. wish those savages in Bengahzi would have tasted that medicine.

    Thumb up 0

     
  56. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    “In a 5-O’Clock pm meeting in the WH with the VP and SecDef in attendance while monitoring the live-feed from Benghazi, a dithering Obama,an individual devoid of any core value, chose to sacrifice the lives of the four Americans ”

    Yes, that coheres with what I’ve read.

    The military does all of the operational planning and begins to execute the rescue operation. But the one thing they CAN’T do is cross an international border without permission from the President. So the US Military will be inbound full-steam-ahead to make the rescue, and all they need from the White House is a “proceed” order. In this case, they got a “stand down” instead. The In-Extremis Force was turned down by the President at his five p.m. Eastern time meeting with the principals.

    Thumb up +2

     
  57. Bad Brad

    October 28th, 2012

    AND then, he went to bed. Takes a certain kind of asshole to do that.

    Thumb up +3

     
  58. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    what i don’t get however is that NATO should allow AFRICOM to send rescue ops across borders.

    is the issue here between a hostile mission, guns open, and a simple rescue mission, without firing weapons?

    At that moment when the critical incident alarm messages start ringing, military steps happen on autopilot in real time. Everybody in the Navy and USAF chain of command swings into a crisis contingency plan mode. What ships are closest? Helicopters? Marines? Delta is in Germany? Get them moving right now. Where is closest? Sigonella, for now. It’s NATO, no permission needed, just fly.

    http://westernrifleshooters.wordprxess.com/2012/10/25/bracken-obama-was-asleep/

    Thumb up 0

     
  59. Grandpa

    October 28th, 2012

     
  60. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    thanks Grandpa

    btw, do you understand the issue about crossing border? I don’t, since a AC130 based in the Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away from Banghazi, woud not have crossed any border but Libya’s.

    And we don’t care abut Libya, since al-Qaeda is in power there.

    Thumb up 0

     
  61. Bad Brad

    October 28th, 2012

    Anyway you want to look at this, this is much worse then Carter crashing helicopters in the desert. What fries my ass is the media is covering for this asshole. They are doing the best they can to make sure none of this comes out until after the election. This is not responsible journalism. They should swing with him. In a perfect world, Romney wins, hangs a few of them, throws the rest in a special jail. Sometimes I have my issues with FOX, but they are the only voice for justice right now. Especially that chic that had breast cancer and went right back into the mix. She’s tuff.

    Thumb up +2

     
  62. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

     
  63. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    they want to institute the Caliphate all over Europe, North Africa and the Middle East

    To use them savages to destroy Christianity and exterminate the Jewish People.

    Socialists hate Christ, and hate Jewish People, and hate freedom and capitalism.

    that’s all

    Thumb up +1

     
  64. Dagny

    October 28th, 2012

    very interesting and relevant articles by Grandpa

    ” The United States has spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to buy them back, fearful that they would fall into the hands of terrorists.”

    Thumb up +1

     
  65. Grandpa

    October 29th, 2012

    @Dagny, Thank You… but I have lost hope… people do not wish to engage. I wish they did. I have been trying for 18 months to open the discussion. No luck.

    Framework in comment:
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2011/09/07/cnn-report-up-to-20k-advanced-surface-to-air-missiles-looted-in-libya-%e2%80%9cwe%e2%80%99ve-seen-cars-packed-with-them%e2%80%9d%e2%80%a6/#comment-40745

    Outcome in Afghanistan. 2011 4 choppers shot down. 2012 11 so far (DUH) leading to Drop of “close air support”… we are fighting our own weapons AGAIN. a.g.a.i.n. A-fucking-gain.

    Frustrated proof:
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/10/25/obama-arming-al-qaeda-reason-for-libya-cover-up/

    The enemy is “lit”, Specter will not engage. The laser is lighting up the White House.

    No-One Cares.

    80% of the Seal Team that killed the principle (Bin Laden) were killed by a missile we essentially gave to Taliban.

    Spike THAT Woodward (((crickets)))

    Who crys harder? Boehner OR Pat Smith?

    Thumb up +3

     
  66. Plain Jane

    October 29th, 2012

    @ Grandpa

    I slump in and out of the same frustration. We just have to get p*ssed and remain so.

    We needed Mossad testosterone intravenously injected. Maybe this was it.

    Thumb up +1

     
  67. MaryfromMarin

    October 29th, 2012

    @Grandpa–

    DON’T lose hope. The battle is in our hearts, and many of them have been won already. And I’m not speaking about a temporal battle. I mean the battle on the higher plane, the one which really counts.

    Thumb up +1