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I Think I Was Punked Last Night
I went on Twitter and saw a hashtag the left created about Romney’s trip to London. I like trolling the left’s hashtags. It’s good sport.
I tweeted, “Did Romney hand out iPods filled with his speeches for gifts? Just wondrin’”
No bites.
I tweeted, “Wondering if Britain has Universal Dental. Even the Royal family have mouths like bent cow catchers.”
Bingo. Some guy named Gary Hayward, from England, started to spar. Nice enough guy, took my insults well. But then it got weird. Really weird.
I called him a communist and he took offense. But it wasn’t what you think. He was insulted because Communism isn’t quite radical enough. Gary is a Free-For-Allist.
I mocked. He insisted I go look at some websites while he signed off for the night. I looked. Gary is either a comic genius or one of the dumbest people on the planet.
You decide.
I left him a message that said I was going to blog this and that he should come over to debate. Gary and I go way back, (one hour) so as a longtime friend I get to call him names. I think we should be nice to Gary (at first) if he shows up. It might be hard to do when you see some of this blog content, but I didn’t warn him about iOTW. We take no prisoners.
http://www.abolishmoney.org.uk/ -
When you have an economic system, you put a price on everything.
All economic systems are rationing systems based on discrimination and inequality by definition; intrinsically; you cannot have an economic system otherwise; it’s logically impossible.
Economic systems hinder human progress, since there is always a limited amount of money in the pot for anything, including things of the common good: education (schools; colleges; universities); healthcare (doctors; nurses; care workers; drug development); transport (roads; railways; buses); you name it.
Capitalism allocates resources according to ability, rewarding the more able and punishing the less able; it sorts the ‘wheat’ from the ‘chaff’; it is a eugenic system. Your abilities were set in stone when you were conceived by your parents. Neither your parents, nor you, of course, got to decide on them. They are unalterable, for life. You might as well allocate resources on the basis of any other genetic characteristics, such as hair or eye colour, or skin colour (imagine that?). (It’s not a question of effort; that’s the Effort Myth: it doesn’t matter how much effort you put in, you’ll never achieve beyond your abilities.) The more able you are, the more and better the things you get; the less able, the less and poorer the things you get.
FAQ
How will goods and services be produced and supplied when there is no money around?
The workers at the coal mine dig up the coal and leave it at the gates for anyone to pick up free of charge. The baker bakes some bread and leaves it for anyone who wants it. And so with the butcher and so on.
Why would the coal miners turn up, also the baker and the butcher and so on?
People work for many reasons. To have a sense of purpose in the world, involved in the progress of mankind. Let’s face it, work is something to fill a day in with! Would people simply give up working if money was abolished? And do what? Stare at their navels all day long? I doubt it. And just think what would happen if nobody worked. Things would deteriorate rapidly. Hospitals would fall to bits, along with any other buildings. There would be no food. Water would be contaminated. There would be no transport. The list goes on. People would not tolerate a decay in the standards of living that they have been used to. Scientists and health care workers, to give just two examples, work in their respective areas because, on the whole, they care passionately about their fields. A salary cheque for these intelligent and intellectual people is not the main reason for them having the types of jobs that they have, it’s merely a bonus in a monied society. And remember, there is a conflict of interests for a health-care provider. The doctors and nurses provide a valuable service and need to be rewarded fully, but the more money that goes into the pay packets of these people, the less there is for medical equipment and drugs. That dilemma would not occur in a money-free society. And, don’t forget that there’d be unlimited resources for drug development, therapies and treatments. How wonderful for a biochemist to go to his lab knowing there was nothing to hold him back from pushing the limits of knowledge back. How sad, that, today, the NHS (National Health Service, the UK social health provider, funded by taxpayers and free at the point of use in most cases) has such difficulties. Juggling finances and beds on wards. All of that would be gone. Over in certain African countries, the poorest of the poor would have access to all of the medical treatments available anywhere (no transport costs and no drugs costs, etc) so no more blindness for want of a simple operation to remove two cataracts.
Wouldn’t people just go crazy and stockpile resources for themselves, selfishly?
What would be the point? Every good and service would be in plentiful supply for anyone at no cost. There would be no point at all in selfishness. There could be instances of what might be called ‘waste’. Somebody might create a giant video wall in their back garden wiht thousands of televisions, gargantuan works of art might be created by anyone and put anywhere. However, these things would be likely to be undertaken only by the minority.
Would people have personal possessions?
Yes, but that would not take the form of stockpiling as mentioned above. People would be perfectly entitled to have personal possessions. Most people wouldn’t want to share their homes, for example, and, why should they? Maybe communnal living would evolve in the future, but there is no necessity for it in a money-free society. And there’d be unlimited resources to build homes.
Wouldn’t there still be lazy types who would not do anything and just sponge off everyone else.
Of course. But there are these types today and they would be much diminished in a money-free society. Opportunities would be available for all — education unlimited in resources (including teachers), unlimited employment and so on. Forget about unemployment, there would be no unemployment. if a relative few wished to do nothing and live off the rest, so be it. Good luck to them.
Wouldn’t the Earth become polluted? There would be unlimited exploitation of the planet’s natural resources, surely?
Don’t forget that there would be unlimited progress in all areas, including technology. There would be no stopping the development of cleaner, greener energy and for cleaning up the world, unlike today, where fitting, say, sulphur-reducing equipment to a power plant costs big money. Today, it costs to be good. Cleaning up polution is a part of the financial equations of businesses and governments. Money used for the environmental good can not be reused for something else, say, product research and development, marketing and so on.
!snip!
You get the gist. You can read the rest here.
Oh, wait. One last thing. This is why I think Greg is a comic genius:
MERCHANDISE ON IT’S WAY?
This organisation hopes to be making available various items for purchase over the internet, such as pens, T. shirts, badges, bumper/car window stickers, ballons(!), and mugs (and anything else we can think of). We can’t promise anything, but watch this space for further announcements.
!!SNIPPPPPPP!
Okay. There’s really too much to make fun of here. Asking questions almost feels like you’re legitimizing notions that shouldn’t be legitimized. But maybe we can save a life here.
I’ll start with this.
In this “everything is free” society, who is going to do the dirty, dangerous and depressing jobs?
There are jobs that are only performed by people because it is compensated nicely, or because it’s their only ability.
For instance: who mops up the peep show booth? Who drains your cesspool? Who crawls into the sewer? Or, to use you r stupid example – WHO WORKS IN A FRIGGIN COAL MINE??
Everything is free. Why would anyone want to be the one that cleans up a heinous crime scene? Why would anyone be a prison guard? Why would anyone put out an oil rig fire?
Wouldn’t everyone want to be an actor? Wouldn’t everyone want to live in Malibu?
Who would want to live in the shittiest locales? And who decides who gets the beach view?
Please tell me that you’re joking. Please.
RacK_AttacK
July 28th, 2012
Merchandise on the way for purchase………………with……….abolished……..money. I gotta go with comedic genius….or retarded.
RacK_AttacK
July 28th, 2012
The British make me laugh. Kinda like I did with their ode to socialized medicine in the opening ceremonies. Oh sweet babies don’t worry you’re young we’ll pay for you til you get to expensive.
Diogenes
July 28th, 2012
Just the result of island inbreeding.
Believe me, I know.
Czar of Defenestration
July 28th, 2012
My purpose in life is now to sit on the beach and do nothing whenever I feel like it…until I want some “free” bread.
Yeah, I chuckled at the “merchandise” part, too.
gee…do carnal desires get covered by the DoYourOwnThingMan? Free rape tents for everybody!
Toaster
July 28th, 2012
Has anyone else read Thomas Moore’s Utopia? Or perhaps some review of it, or another work based on it such as Ameritopia (Mark Levin)?
Many people have beene posing idealistic models for civilization for many years. Marx and Engels thought that Communsm would create a better world with happier people and how has that worked out so far? We can’t ask the 100 million+ that are dead as a result of Communism what they think.
In fairly recent times people have been calling these proposed societies Utopias based on Moore’s work.
Moore had his life cut short (literaly) by his boss Henry VIII so he wasn’t able to make too much commentary on Utopia. Some believe that he wrote it as an example of what not to do or satire but we will never have positive proof of that.
The guy who started the Gilette razor company, King C. Gilette (yes his parents named him King) was a utopian statist / socialist before his success in the razor business. He had a plan for the entire population of the United States to live in a sardine-like collective near Niagra Falls (ample hydroelectric power) in perfect harmony with everyone working for the common good and resulting in a perfect happy society and all of the country would be untouched by evil civilization.
People have been proposing things like this for a long time.
How many failed USSR collective Utopias and dead people do we have to have before people agree that it’s not going to work? How many examples of miserable people living (if they’re lucky) under dictators such as in China, Cuba and North Korea are needed (BTW screw you Tom Friedman from NYTimes you dont have to live there). Man is not perfect and can not create a perfect mchine let alone a perfect society. But the clarion call of “[insert name] just didn’t do it right” and I / we will do it right this time is too hard to resist.
There are too many real world examples of death and misery created by utopian statists to debunk this particular fantasy.
BigSlurpy
July 28th, 2012
I don’t mind bartering but only to avoid taxes.
Jack Daniels
July 28th, 2012
Am I the only one who think it’s odd that his symbol is the US dollar rather than the British pound?
Either way, I think he is a complete fool if in fact he’s serious. His arguments for a free-for-all society are delusional, and not rooted in any degree of reality or logic. Moreover he is ignorant on the basic understanding of human dynamics. There will always be those who will, no matter what model of society is created, not embrace these people’s vision of paradise.
You cannot get 500 independent, clear thinking people to agree on a single topic, how the hell do you propose to have 6 billion people adopt and implement this mindless dribble without coercion?
God, where does one even start to explain the level of stupidity of this particular model?
You guys who answered before me already touched on some of the obvious errors in his thinking, and we could go on all day, but what’s the point? To feed this guys delusion?
At any rate, even if this is a joke, it is a futile exercise, like trying to rationalize insanity, only to embrace insanity for sanity’s sake.
pizzago
July 28th, 2012
I wanna be a brain surgeon. I think i’ve found my first patient.
DavidD
July 28th, 2012
I only made it this far: “it doesn’t matter how much effort you put in, you’ll never achieve beyond your abilities.”
Effort does matter. You damn sure can achieve below your abilities–literally by not trying at all.
You don’t get any points for sitting on your butt.
cfm990
July 28th, 2012
MERCHANDISE ON IT’S WAY?
I see he subscribes to the Michael Moore brand of anti capitalism.
well now
July 28th, 2012
His line of reasoning sounds like what I believed when I was 16, of course at 17 I graduated High School, got a job and grew up.
shotwell
July 28th, 2012
Reminds me of the chats I use to have with my college pals while going on a 3 day binge snorting meth and coke. We were all genious then.
"That Guy"
July 28th, 2012
“Gary is either a comic genius or one of the dumbest people on the planet.”
I’m going with the later.
eternal cracker p
July 28th, 2012
Move over Obama, I’m taking over the white house. Obama can trade with me, I just stare at my navel all day… Oh wait, I guess Obama does the same thing. DAMNIT.
Well, I put a fresh jar of navel lint at the door, who ever wants it.
Team America
July 28th, 2012
It’ll be interesting to see if Gary shows up. Doubt it but if he does, iOTW’ers will certainly spot him and put him in his place. Look out for another “name” other than Gary.
NoMoBo
July 28th, 2012
“Capitalism allocates resources according to ability, rewarding the more able and punishing the less able”
Seems to me this system rewards the more able as well. Those with initiative show up at the coal mine’s gates, therefore they will be better supplied with coal, etc.
This steaming pile makes about as much sense as the freaking communist Olympics opening ceremony. These people disgust me.
Tim
July 28th, 2012
C’mon, it’s satire.
The barking seals will bark and clap, maybe even purchase a T-Shirt or two.
Gary is laughing like Hell and snorting more glue.
mkultra
July 28th, 2012
Someone wake me up when the housing fairies are done building my mansion.
mkultra
July 28th, 2012
The primary flaw in this type of utopian thinking is a profound misunderstanding of human nature.
Many an Occupy-Wall-Streeter with utopian fantasies got a hard lesson in the depravity of his fellow man.
norman einstein
July 28th, 2012
@BFH, the guy’s a card-carrying loon.
I went to his website and it’s just typical utopian boilerplate nonsense that he has copied and pasted from elsewhere.
Half the pages are blank!
His “resources” page has links to marxists.org, etc.
But this was my favorite…
he has disclaimers at the bottom of some pages. They were last modified anywhere from 2003 – 2006.
monkeypig
July 28th, 2012
He is probably a big Star Trek fan. They have no money in the future. Star Trek is what Communism would be like if it really worked. Everybody works not for money, but for the common good.
AbigailAdams
July 28th, 2012
Toaster, thanks for your comment. I was relieved to see it because I am tired and didn’t really feel like doing all that typing (again).
Statism is big business these days. I think it’s time to recycle those pyramid schemes people did in the late ’70′s. Remember those? You put in $1,000. and a couple of days and about 40 people later, you came away with $40K. They were all the rage in Seattle. Surely if the populous is falling for Utopia again, they must have also forgotten pyramids. It would be so much easier this time around with FB and Craigslist.
Mark Zist
July 28th, 2012
I wonder if be would send me a t shirt if I send him a picture of a pile of coal (which he is free to collect when he needs it)?
Dr. Tar
July 28th, 2012
The quickest, easiest answer to this kind of lunancy is – You first.
Set the example for the rest of us to follow. Show us all how wonderfully successful you are practicing your ideals and the rest of use will learn from you and convert over volantarily to your obviously superior approach to economics.
blahblahblah
July 28th, 2012
I think this is awesome!
Because really, forget about the dirty stuff and instead think about the big stuff! Like, say, replacing a bridge that falls apart.
So, now we need to gather up thousands of people to try to design it, search the world to locate parts, transport everything and assemble the bridge – and all these people of unknown skill ability from who knows how far and wide are going to do it, well, just because. Awesome – especially considering I cant find a person to help me fix a flat on the side of the road…
I do want to point out the beauty of the “set it at the gate” theory though! I mean, you live 1,000 miles from the closest farm and this is bound to be an extremely handy way of surviving, you know…
Ohhh, and what about flying? I mean, things like security and repair and piloting will be left up to the same “please come help us do these things” need, so random Joe who decides he wants to fly or do the repairs, well come on down… And if random Joe is really random Muhammad hoping to wipe out huge percentages of the population – so be it, I guess.
Yep, I love theories like this – it ignores the very real world where we see extreme shortages in people wanting to do shitty jobs unless extreme pay is provided, and unbelievable amounts of people taking “liberal arts” classes which produce the massive amounts of walking idiots unable to provide real benefits to society.
I know I will be throwing aside my current, productive job to be a professional Suffer though; so there is always that… (unless, of course, million and millions have the same idea and there is so much overcrowding at the beach that surfing is basically impossible. Wonder what the odds of that are?)
blahblahblah
July 28th, 2012
BTW, people seem to be forgetting that the population has tried this before – we generally refer to those people as cave-men. Cave-men rather quickly evolved into bartering for items though. And out of bartering came money, of course, making trade much fairer and easier for all involved.
But fair and easy are bad, you know…
BigFurHat
July 28th, 2012
Part of my usual routine when confronted by these loons is to ask the most basic question – What is Money?
He, of course, failed.
Money is simply a way of bartering with people you will never meet, and what it represents is expelled human energy.
Ron Paul goes on and on about the gold standard.
Pffffft.
Let’s get back to the human energy standard.
Too many people are passing out promissory notes that are not backed by human energy because the gubmint printed it and handed it to people who provide nothing.
Removing “the economy” solves nothing. You’ll be left with the same people who are not willing to do a thing. In fact, you’ll have many more of them.
BigFurHat
July 28th, 2012
Since services are now free, I will be offering my male stripping services just about everywhere.
norman einstein
July 28th, 2012
“Stripping services”, BFH?
For the love of God, leave your hat on…and good luck.
MaryfromMarin
July 28th, 2012
From “no money” to “free stripping services”–did this just go from the ridiculous to the sublime? Or is it the other way around?
Czar of Defenestration
July 28th, 2012
I give away *free* lolipops with every dance.
Stirrin the B.S.
July 28th, 2012
Late to the conversation, but I stopped reading after this stated premise:
“….Economic systems hinder human progress, since there is always a limited amount of money in the pot for anything….”
There is no such thing as a limited money supply. That’s the old zero-sum gain, static pie argument that is patently and blatently incorrect. Our economy expands because banks are allowed to take a $100 deposit and lend out $90.
That $90 belongs to the original depositor. The bank can lend out $90 of that $100 deposit, even thought the original depositor can come in tomorrow and withdraw his whole $100.
If you don’t understand that concept, it’s the law of large numbers. At any given time, deposits are made (cash in), loans are made (cash out), and loan payments are made (cash in, with interest). This model provides liquidity, while allowing the economy to expand.
This guy is spoofing, or doesn’t know what the f**k he’s talking about.
The Proletarian
July 28th, 2012
The only way your buddy’s wet dream would work is if humans did not need to eat.
Genl Ripper
July 28th, 2012
No, this guy is for reals. There really are idiot fucktards in the world who passionately believe this shit. They also believe unicorns exist and that they fart rainbows.
I once banged a broad named Ivy who had bought into all this crap – she had a shma melty fetal alcohol syndrome face that was clearly the result of her mother’s rampant alcoholism and it must have affected her brain’s reasoning power too. Her “career” was working for some far-left NGO helping illegal alien immigrants obtain jobs, health care, fake ID’s, etc. All on the American Taxpayer’s dime of course.
I dumped the bitch after one week – apparently my limitless ability to cynically rationalize putting up with any amount of shit in return for good tail met its limits. Thank G-d for Call Blocking.
(Montgomery Burns shuddering sound)
Genl Ripper
July 28th, 2012
damned POS iCraoptop!
“shma” was supposed to be “shmokin’ hot body but had a melty-faced fetal alcohol syndrome face….”
Genl Ripper
July 28th, 2012
damned POS iCraptop!!
Gary Hayward
July 30th, 2012
Hi!
Gary, here!
Sorry I’m late to the party (there’s some kind of sporting event going on right now called ‘Olympics’, or something).
Anyway, so much ignorance: where to begin? You will excuse me while I take time out to compose my responses, won’t you?
TTFN.
(Nice site, BTW.)
Gary Hayward
July 30th, 2012
Additional info.: http://www.abolisheconomicsystems.org/; and ‘glossary’ at http://abolisheconomicsystems.abolishmoney.org.uk/my_glossary_01.html. Plus, a blog copied at bottom.
Next, my replies to ‘iOTW’ article, then my resplies to commenters’ comments (then the blog, mentioned above).
‘I like trolling [...]‘
Trolls can be fun.
‘Nice enough guy [...]‘
You’re so sweet.
‘[...] he took offense.’
Not really; no.
‘[...] (one hour) so as a longtime friend I get to call him names.’
Was it really that long? I’ve really flattered you there, then. But, isn’t it a bit ad hominem in a debate?
‘http://www.abolishmoney.org.uk/’
Now, I’m really dissapointed, here. I gave you _two_ site addresses, but you’ve only referenced, and quoted, one. I assume http://www.abolisheconomicsystems.org/ proved too effective a nuke of your arguments to mention.
‘”Merchandise on it’s way?”‘
Going by some of your commenters, I’m assuming you, also, are finding an irony in that. Personally, I can’t see anything funny about an organisation or whatever offering promotional material to pay for its necessary expenses, and, given that the organisation _currently_ exists under an economic system, charging for it. It’s so hilarious that people think there’s an irony; it’s like somebody expecting me, if I want things to be free, to walk into stores, pick up goods off the shelves and walk out without paying, in order to be consistent in my beliefs. Well: no! I don’t walk into stores and take things without paying, because we _currently_ still have an economic system to live under; if I simply took without paying, I’d be depriving the store, which, through no fault of its own, also has to _currently_ live under an economic system. No irony, there. Really. Trust me on that.
‘In this “everything is free” society, who is going to do the dirty, dangerous and depressing jobs?
There are jobs that are only performed by people because it is compensated nicely, or because it’s their only ability.
For instance: who mops up the peep show booth? Who drains your cesspool? Who crawls into the sewer? Or, to use you r stupid example – WHO WORKS IN A FRIGGIN COAL MINE??
Everything is free. Why would anyone want to be the one that cleans up a heinous crime scene? Why would anyone be a prison guard? Why would anyone put out an oil rig fire?
Wouldn’t everyone want to be an actor? Wouldn’t everyone want to live in Malibu?
Who would want to live in the shittiest locales? And who decides who gets the beach view?’
This is further evidence of a lack of thought by people of the idea. In a free-for-all society, there is no mandated reward for anything. You take what you need and want, whenever you need or want it. But, if it helps you to understand, think of it like this: effectively, this means that the reward for doing one’s job — ‘dirty, dangerous and depressing’, including the examples you give, or otherwise — would be whatever one wanted it to be. Specifically (your examples): with the current state of affairs — that is, under an economic system — apart from, say, coal mining and firefighting, those jobs are _badly_ paid; _not_ well paid; however so, there’s still a worth explicity place on a coal miner’s and firefighter’s services. I don’t know how anyone can say to a firefighter that might die in, God forbid, another 9/11-type attack that they are only worth X amount of dollars. Just imagine a firefighter on his/her salary dying trying to rescue a millionaire from their burning mansion. Is trying to save a life (selflessly) worth a tiny fraction of what those at the top earn (selfishly)? If you think so, you’re one hell of an ignorant/stupid/sick person (delete as applicable). You ask if not everyone would want to be an actor. No, people want all kinds of jobs for all kinds of reasons, and still would (although, currently, many want to be an actor simply because of the great money it could earn them). Same with where people want to live. Does everyone, now, want to go and live in Malibu? Think of all the people who are rich currently. They all have the money to set up home in Malibu. Why don’t they? Currently, Malibu can support many more people than it does. Again, so, why don’t all those rich people all go there and set up home? This links rather nicely into your mention of ‘shittiest locales’. Because, with economic systems abolished, there’d be _no_ ‘shittiest locales’; there’d be unlimited resources to make _anywhere_ as nice a place to live as anywhere else.
Please think about the idea properly. It’s wonderfully simple, yet, paradoxically, so hard for people to grasp, so embedded is selfish greed in people’s hearts, polluting their minds.
Or, stick with the current system, which allocates resources on the basis of how you were born (as if that was anyone’s ‘fault’). Stick with economic systems and have ninety million children die in the world before their fifth birthdays because they can’t afford potable water, enough food, and treatments and cures for even simple things like diarrhoea. After all, it’s easy when you live in a rich country to turn the other cheek like that. And have all human progress — including science and technology — held back because there’s a price tag on it. Go down to you local childrens’ cancer wards and say to the kids how good it is that there’s a price on their heads; a limit to the finding of treatments and cures for cancers.
It’s your call.
Don’t forget to call here: http://www.abolisheconomicsystems.org/.
Here are my responses to the comments of others, here (sorry, but it’s a bit lame not being able to reply to individual comments):
RacK_AttacK
July 28th, 2012
Merchandise issue: see above.
RacK_AttacK
July 28th, 2012
It’s a no-brainer: which would I prefer? Living in a country in which, if you get ill, you’ll get treated/cured (even if you have a small wait for a non-emergency condition); or, living in a country in which, if you get ill, you’ll get treated/cured (straightaway) — but only if you can afford it — otherwise, tough shit: you can die, baby. Simples! You’re right, though: cost is the problem — but for any system. That’s why we need to abolish economic systems.
Diogenes
July 28th, 2012
You do? Um…
Czar of Defenestration
July 28th, 2012
Hmmm. I guess your point is that people only work because of a mandated reward for it. My dispute of that’s already been quoted. No idea how you’ve extrapolated to ‘free rape tents’.
Toaster
July 28th, 2012
I’m not going to argue with anyone who connects the idea to Marxism/communism, given that the idea has absolutely nothing to do with that. Nice try, though. ‘There are too many real world examples of death and misery [...]‘ in having economic systems.
BigSlurpy
July 28th, 2012
Another misconception. Not even bartering.
Jack Daniels
July 28th, 2012
‘Am I the only one who think it’s odd that his symbol is the US dollar rather than the British pound?’
That’s odd. I rather thought that the dollar symbol was recognised widely around the globe — the _most_ widely recognised currency symbol. But you’re right: it is odd that an organisation called The UK Abolish Money Organisation, to do with economics(,) across the globe should use the most widely-known currency symbol in existence.
‘There will always be those who will, no matter what model of society is created, not embrace these people’s vision of paradise.’
Another, common, false argument, for it denies free-will: ‘people’ll never do that’. Clever.
‘You cannot get 500 independent, clear thinking people to agree on a single topic, how the hell do you propose to have 6 billion people adopt and implement this mindless dribble without coercion?’
Again: the denial of free-will. As far as coercion is concerned: a beauty — and a moral strenth — of the idea is that it cannot be imposed; a majority of people must adopt it. And, who’d not want it? Nobody loses out; it means unlimited resources and break-neck progress for everybody.
‘God, where does one even start to explain the level of stupidity of this particular model?’
Nothing’s more stupid than an economic system.
pizzago
July 28th, 2012
Without an economic system, there’d be unlimited resources, including teachers, schools, colleges, and universiteies, for anyone and everyone, at no cost. Be that brain surgeon (if you’ve got the ability).
DavidD
July 28th, 2012
I try to make what I write as simple as possible, as I have no idea the level of intellect of the reader. Yet, it appears, here, that, astonishingly, I have not made it baby-simple enough.
Nobody has said that effort does not matter; that is not what the statement you quote means. To achieve anything requires the effort, but, no matter how much effort you put into something, you’ll never achieve beyond your abilities. How much simpler can I put it. Sheesh!
cfm990
July 28th, 2012
Merchandise issue: see above.
well now
July 28th, 2012
Yawn — and to next few comments, until:
NoMoBo
July 28th, 2012
‘Seems to me this system rewards the more able as well. Those with initiative show up at the coal mine’s gates, therefore they will be better supplied with coal, etc.’
It doesn’t take much initiative to turn up for sometihng you need or want, does it? Actually, forget turning up: you can have your coal delivered! See! LOL. I notice you conveniently ignore the ‘punishment’ side of things, for inability/disability here. The fact that, if you’re not able to get something, under the current system, you’ve had it.
Tim
July 28th, 2012
Yawn.
mkultra
July 28th, 2012
As stated, there’d be no widespread laziness.
mkultra
July 28th, 2012
‘The primary flaw in this type of utopian thinking is a profound misunderstanding of human nature.’
As stated, this denies free-will. Humans aren’t robots. Maybe you are.
norman einstein
July 28th, 2012
Copied-and-pasted? No, but if you think it is, contact the originator and get them to sue. Really. I mean it.
‘Half the pages are blank!’
Oh, I see. An idea on a Web site is crap if there are some ‘blank’ pages! Actually, they’re not blank; the navigation bar and other common stuff is there; they’re waiting for ‘content’ (and, nothing of which anything else is contingent upon in any way; immaterial to the argument).
‘They were last modified anywhere from 2003 – 2006.’
I don’t get it. There’s the idea, on the site. Why would it need to be updated?
monkeypig
July 28th, 2012
‘Everybody works not for money, but for the common good.’
Poeple work for many reasons, as the quoted Web site shows. If nobody worked, things would deteriorate. Nobody would tolerate that. As I said.
Working collaboratively, effectively for the common good, benefits humanity — that is: all of us. Selfish greed sounds good, but it’s ironic (the Irony of Selfish Greed); it’s actually harmful to the selfishly greedy. Think of the biochemist who will only work to find cures for cancers to the extent that he’s paid to do so, despite (s)he him/herself being as likely as anyone else to get a cancer. Same with the pharmaceutical company that employs him, and everything else. Collaboration; not competition is what we need. Competition is dead.
AbigailAdams
July 28th, 2012
There’s a big pyramid for capitalism.
Mark Zist
July 28th, 2012
Yawn
Dr. Tar
July 28th, 2012
‘The quickest, easiest answer to this kind of lunancy is – You first.’
If you’re saying that I create an economic system-free world for myself, first, then you’re an idiot. As if I can — and would — walk into a shop and take for nothing to ‘live the idea’. If, on the other hand, you are saying that the idea wouldn’t work becuase Who’d go first? That silly, given the benefits, and people’s free-will.
blahblahblah
July 28th, 2012
Bridges getting fixed? What’s the problem?
‘I do want to point out the beauty of the “set it at the gate” theory though! I mean, you live 1,000 miles from the closest farm and this is bound to be an extremely handy way of surviving, you know…’
Um…goods and services delivered. You know, like, um… today?
I really can’t be bothered right now to reply to the rest of your comments. I will, though. Don’t worry.
blahblahblah
July 28th, 2012
‘BTW, people seem to be forgetting that the population has tried this before – we generally refer to those people as cave-men.’
No, but simply refecting your urges and desires and, therefore, have economic systems is primitive. That’s ‘cave-man’. The abolishing-economic-systems idea is light years from being primitive. It’s the World’s Greatest-Ever Idea, in fact.
BigFurHat
July 28th, 2012
‘Part of my usual routine when confronted by these loons is to ask the most basic question – What is Money?’
Yet again, another common misconception. The UK Abolish Money Organisation’s idea is not simply to abolish money. It is to abolish economic systems. It is named ‘Abolish Money’ as that is a slightly more user-friendly (more ‘accessible’; likely to get people’s interest) name than ‘Abolish Economic Systems’ or some such. (By abolishing economic systems, of course, at that instant, by logical necessity, money is abolished.)
BigFurHat
July 28th, 2012
Now, there’s an offer.
norman einstein
July 28th, 2012
No comment, until:
Stirrin the B.S.
July 28th, 2012
Listen up. ALL ECONOMIC SYSTEMS PUT A PRICE TAG ON EVERYTHING. THEY MUST, THEREFORE, LOGICALLY, LIMIT THE USE OF THOSE RESOURCES. IT’S SIMPLE. YOU DON’Y NEED TO BRING ANYTHING ELSE INTO IT. THINK ABOUT IT. WITH EVERYTHING FREE, THERE ARE NO LIMITS, AND THERE IS NO LIMIT TO FINDING WAYS TO DEVELOP WAYS OF GETTING HOLD OF RESOURCES CURRENTLY INACCESSIBLE. PUT AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM OVER THAT AND THE RESOURCES _ARE_, THEN, LIMITED!
The Proletarian
July 28th, 2012
If commenters, here, can’t be bothered to explain their arguments: too bad. I’m not about to start trying mind-reading them.
Genl Ripper
July 28th, 2012
No more serious comments until my own, so no reply.
By the way, ‘iOTW’: who the hell is ‘Greg’?
Here’s a blog I wrote a while ago:
US Americans believe that they are living in freedom. This is despite the fact that, everywhere they look, there is a price sticker on everything. Even speech has one on it. The more money you have, the louder you can shout, not just talk; the greater the number of people to whom you can; and the higher up the socio-politico-economic scale the ears to hear you. Got a message? Hire billboard space. Launch a newspaper or TV ad campaign. Go buy yourself a newspaper or TV channel. If, and to the extent, you can afford it, that is.
US Americans believe that they are living in a democracy. But, again, there’s a price sticker. Politicians can be bought and sold just like everything else. Need to get some legislation passed, stopped, or watered down? Ever heard of lobbying? Or maybe a nice, big, fat contribution to a political campaign fund, eh? Not to mention the ol’ cash-stuffed brown envelope passed discretely under the table. When there’s a price sticker on everything, the only voting slips that count are the ones in your wallet; they’re what get things, and get things done; not the one you stuff into the ballot box whenever there’s an election. One man, one vote it aint.
US Americans believe in the ‘American Dream’. They think that, if a person just puts in the effort, he or she can achieve anything. But that can never be true. Because it completely fails to take into account, apart from how selfishly greedy you are, your ability. No matter how much effort you put into anything, you’ll never achieve beyond your abilities. A person’s abilities were determined at the moment of their conception; a genetic blueprint, unchosen and forever unalterable. You might as well allocate resources on the basis of any other genetic characteristics, such as hair, eye — or skin — colour. Imagine that. So much for meritocracy.
US Americans hate communism1. This is despite the fact that you couldn’t get a cigarette paper between it and capitalism. They’re ultimately exactly the same. Leave capitalism to its own devices and you end up with a monopoly that owns and controls everything, with citizens only option to make a living to be an employee of it. Under communism, everything is owned and controlled by the state, with citizens only option to make a living to be an employee of it. Which dictatorship would you prefer?
US Americans hate socialism1. This is despite the fact the every modern economy in the world, by absolute necessity, has socialism as its economic bedrock. Because, for every modern society in the world, there must be an educated workforce for any even remotely efficient progress and growth to occur. And that means that everybody must be educated, at least to some reasonable level. And the only viable way to provide this is by the state. Of course, it’s no good having even the finest schools, colleges, and universities if people are too sick to attend. And to work. That means your citizens must be healthy and fit. And the only way to provide the healthcare is by the state. The more citizens that are healthy and fit, the more citizens that are educated and work-capable, and so the better the progress and growth. For roads, too: the state. Remember monopolies in the previous paragraph? What major institution is there to stop them? The state; not heard of the Antitrust Division of the US DOJ? And to what do capitalists unashamedly run with their begging bowls for a bailout in a major financial crisis? Yep, you guessed it.
1Don’t forget: US Americans, in ignorance, negligence, or mischeviousness, call ‘socialism’ ‘communism’.
MaryfromMarin
July 31st, 2012
Whoa, Gary! Take a breath once in a while.
Bad Brad
July 31st, 2012
I’ll wait for the movie thank you.
Czar of Defenestration
July 31st, 2012
Gary, shut the f*ck up and just give me your wallet (and the money in it), since you don’t need it.
NO “but I still neeeeed it, being forced to live under this eeeevil capitalist system” EXCUSES, imbecile.
Ming the Merciless
July 31st, 2012
I dont want to burst your ballon, guys, but there was in Canada a party called “Social Credit” who advocated printing money…the odd thing, they where very conservative, at the same time that Allende had 1000% inflation in Chile…etc…They had power in Alberta, of all place and British Columbia…They where far, far right lunatics in there similar to today Ron Paul’s and Aryan Nation Cookies…
Jerry Manderin
July 31st, 2012
Gary. This is how Manson Family lived. ‘Nuff said.
Ming the Merciless
July 31st, 2012
I wonder if anyone bothered to read lunatic Gary
nonsense?…I thought so, no one wasted fifteen minutes of their life on such senseless thrash!
Bad Brad
July 31st, 2012
I just checked, my bubble is in tact. Thank Obama.
Moxie Man
July 31st, 2012
I used to espouse the utopian doctrine … until the acid wore off.
vangrungy
July 31st, 2012
Gary Hayward is quite simply a product of the European vision of the world. All socialism all the time. He has Zero understanding of what happened to America since Woodrow Wilson’s daggers into the heart of America’s Republican form of government.
Gary Gnu is my nick name for him now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAwVIZDAUF0
.
The Doktor
July 31st, 2012
Gary – Put your money where your Leftist mouth is. My car died last month. I NEED one to get to work and to pay taxes so that the lazy assholes like your ilk can TAKE from working people.
$2,500 ought to do it. Just send it c/o The Doktor to this website via PayPal.
P.S. – I’m certainly not gonna hold my breath on this one!
Czar of Defenestration
July 31st, 2012
*I* did, Ming. Hurt my eyes, but I did.
The Doktor
July 31st, 2012
GARY!
Ah, HELL! Make it £2,500!! It’ll probably need new tires and brakes.
Mr.Pinko
July 31st, 2012
Gary, what’s the point of living?
Czar of Defenestration
July 31st, 2012
Gary, what do you do in your fantasyland when there’s a conflict:
When someone wants something another doesn’t want to give up? (it could be bread or a potato…or your sister or daughter? She’s lookin’ pretty fine to me right now…don’t tell me that’s not part of your world)
When people – being people – behave in a way which is in direct conflict with your “rules” (the lazy SOB who only takes…like me wanting to lay on the beach, but get my free food, drink and suntan lotion)?
Gimme gimme gimme, GARY…NOW!!!!!
Dyrewulf
July 31st, 2012
So – I work for one of the largest utility companies in the U.S. – and I can say with 100% confidence that 90% of these people wouldn’t show up for work without getting paid. That would put Georgia, Alabama, most of Mississippi, part of Florida, South Carlina and Texas in the dark both in terms of electricity, and since we partner with AT&T in monitoring the data backbone, the internet as well completely gone in those states.
Jack Daniels
July 31st, 2012
Gary,
I suggest you brush up on your understanding of free will.
Perhaps by reading something from Thomas Aquinas or Ayn Rand, or the multitude of available literature on the subject.
I categorically believe in free will. My argument was based on free will. Your response claiming otherwise is an informal fallacy.
Even Jesus states that a worker is worth his wages, as well as the writers of the Old Testament.
cfm990
July 31st, 2012
This Free for all society will be just that, a free for all. True, there is property available in Malibu. True, not all rich people want to live there. But, take away the cost, and 10 million + people will want to live there. What happens when the hands of two people reach the doorknob at the same time? Utopia takes a back seat to Darwinism. The reward system of, anything you want, for the work you do, is flawed beyond comprehension. Nobody is going to WANT to empty bed pans. Work would have to be assigned. Now we’re talking forced labor. Not very utopic is it? Who decides who is the supervisor, who is laborer? What are the incentives to do a good job, self satisfaction? In your society “good enough” will be the standard, Excellence but a memory. Sorry Gary, but I don’t want to live in that world.
Czar of Defenestration
July 31st, 2012
Gary, I recommend some old movies from the DON CAMILLO series.
You’ll learn about human nature someday, when you grow up.
Lowell
July 31st, 2012
From Stirrin the B.S.: “Our economy expands because banks are allowed to take a $100 deposit and lend out $90.”
Uhhh, might want to google ‘fractional reserve banking’. You’ve got it backward. They can have 100 dollars on hand and make a loan for 1000. In truth, they are loaning money that never existed. The troublesome part, neither did the interest money you now owe on that loan of imaginary money.
Aidan
July 31st, 2012
You must be moron inoculated to put up with shit like this.
bob
July 31st, 2012
I’ll bite. His idea is not new, even Gene Roddenberry had a society like this in his Star Trek universe.
If this idea would ever work, it should be provable on a smaller scale. I propose Gary get a few dozen billion dollar grant and put together a test community, say … 3 towns in close proximity that are isolated from other communities yet have sufficient natural resources and facilities that they are self sufficient in every way. One town has the power, one town has the water and one town has the food. Other necessities are spread out randomly and so on.
Take away all money and cut them off and implement the no-currency rule and sit back and watch.
Either it would work or there will be war within a year.
I bet he could get 20 billion to test this from the lefty closet-commie folks!
Jack Daniels
July 31st, 2012
Just so you clearly understand:
Everyone has free will to choose a free-for-all utopia
Most will not choose a free-for-all utopia (for reason already cited)
A free-for-all utopia can only be established by violating free will (it’s called communism)
Chieftain
July 31st, 2012
Jesus H. Chrysler! This clown writes a manifesto that would humble Ted Kazinski!
BigFurHat
July 31st, 2012
Gary, Gary, Gary.
You may think you answered my question, but you didn’t.
If I can value my job at whatever I think it should be, by taking all the “free” resources that are in “abundance”
why is anyone going to be the guy who goes into the coal mine?
Why would anyone choose to be the guy the guy who mows the fairway at 5am for the people who play on it?
You’re NUTS.
Stirrin the B.S.
July 31st, 2012
@Lowell – you might want to google fractional reserve banking yourself. The fed puts 10% reserve requirement ond deposited funds – the other 90% is allowed to be loaned out. I used $100 as an overly simplified example – Wikipedia uses $1000. From Wikipedia:
“…As a simple example of how the fractional reserve system works, consider a scenario of only one bank, a reserve fraction of 10%, and an initial money supply of $1000 cash that is initially deposited at our bank. This can effectively be turned into $9954 through 50 successive loans and redeposits. This is achieved as follows.
Only 10% of the original $1000 is required to be held as reserve for the deposit, and so the remaining $900 can be loaned out to a customer who will most likely exchange it with another person for some goods or services….”
My example was correct.
The expansion occurs when the original $900 loan proceeds was used to buy goods or services, and is redeposited into the bank. And then the bank re-lends out 90% of that amount ($810), and so and so forth.
Stirrin the B.S.
July 31st, 2012
Anyway, I meant to comment on Gary and his denial of free will.
The very simple answer is that you CANNOT deny human free will. It’s what God gave humans that sets us apart from every other living organism on this planet.
To remove free will is to become a robot.
Alo Konsen
July 31st, 2012
Gary, if you’re sincere about this (which I doubt) then your assessment of human nature marks you as one of the most tragically deluded people alive.
Alo Konsen
July 31st, 2012
I’ll take Gary seriously when he removes all locks on his residence and renounces all claims to his personal property. Not before.
The Doktor
July 31st, 2012
HEY GARY UTOPIA!!!
I am STILL awaiting the money I need for a car. If you don’t have the £2,500 yourself, perhaps some of your acolytes can muster up this pittance of a sum.