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Ron Paul Calls Bradley Manning a Hero and a Patriot

Home - by - December 20, 2011 - 21:52 America/New_York - 98 Comments

UPDATE: Here is Video of this audio, and it is clearer. Go to the 4 minute mark.

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» 98 Comments

  1. Col. Angus

    December 20th, 2011

    If nothing else, RP nearly makes me proud for voting for McCain.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +13

     
  2. Grayscape

    December 20th, 2011

    Has RP joined Code Pink?

    What’s more pathetic – a 35 year career politician endorsed by the KKK….or the idiot paulistinians who think he’s gonna shake up Washington and bring in some fresh ideas??

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +19

     
  3. Brian in BC

    December 20th, 2011

    Cue the Paulbots to explain this away in 10…9…8…

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +11

     
  4. classicaliberal

    December 20th, 2011

    Paulbots on Youtube praising Manning’s treason. What the hell has this world come to?

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +15

     
  5. Grandpa

    December 20th, 2011

    Oh jeez… here come the flying monkeys. :(

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +12

     
  6. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    Bradley Manning exposed what needed exposing. It took a lot of courage to do what was right. I’m glad he had that courage.

    Thumb up +5

     
  7. Cliff Weismeyer

    December 20th, 2011

    Cool.
    More comment entertainment from the Ronulan cult.
    I think I’ll start a tennis shoe and purple shroud concession for these folks.

    Thumb up +4

     
  8. St. Burrolas

    December 20th, 2011

    Uncle Al…..I like you and all but….

    Fuck you.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +47

     
  9. DeniseVB

    December 20th, 2011

    What needed exposing were Obamas school and financial records, then I might agree with treason :D

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +17

     
  10. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @St. Burrolas – A more deserving target for that comment would be the traitors in and working for the govt.

    Thumb up +7

     
  11. St. Burrolas

    December 20th, 2011

    Right. Bradley Manning.

    But I do apologize. I do like you. I was just shocked and furious.

    Shurious. Possibly Furcked.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +17

     
  12. BigFurHat

    December 20th, 2011

    Ya, sure Uncle Al.
    It was absolutely up to a private to decide what classified information “needs to be exposed.”

    I used to give you the benefit of the doubt because your avatar is so serious looking and you use big words. But seriously, there is no more doubt.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +40

     
  13. St. Burrolas

    December 20th, 2011

    So you’re furcked too?

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +13

     
  14. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @BFH – You’re confusing military and moral authority. If no one else was willing to expose official malfeasance, then yes, it was up to a PFC.

    Would you have a different opinion if it had been a colonel?

    Thumb up +3

     
  15. Lady in Red

    December 20th, 2011

    Really, BFH?

    *I* don’t know. However, I am impressed you are so confident.

    Outside of the embarrassment and exposed duplicity, I don’t know of a problem here. Do you?

    Moreover, given the billions we spend on intelligence and technology, how is it that a rogue private could accomplish this? (Isn’t that a bit like a Quaker kid who told the TSA he’d smuggle box cutters onto an aircraft — then did?)

    Has there been an investigation into the how of this theft? Any demotions? Firings? Anything beyond hand waving and posturing about compromising American security?

    Pass the kool-aid and sleep tight. You are safe: I’m here from the government and I’m going to help you. /sarc off/ …Lady in Red

    Thumb up +3

     
  16. Aunt Liz

    December 20th, 2011

    GAAHH!! He is so simplistic in his reasoning. It is maddening that THINKING CONSERVATIVES buy into his spiel.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +16

     
  17. Anonymous

    December 20th, 2011

    All Abord the Jimmy Carter Crazy Train.

    Thumb up +6

     
  18. Aunt Liz

    December 20th, 2011

    Oh Jeez LIR – REALLY!??? THIS post too? People are going to start to get wise to your supposed “anti Paul” rants if you keep THIS up. But, WHATEVER,,,you ARE so much smarter than the rest of us….

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +16

     
  19. mkultra

    December 20th, 2011

    :) @ Aunt Liz

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +14

     
  20. BigFurHat

    December 20th, 2011

    Uncle Al,
    you’re confusing your arrogance for intelligence.

    It is not up to a soldier to be the arbiter of what information he deems necessary to become public information when it is classified as a secret.
    His first leak was the video of the Apache helicopter strike.
    He viewed it and came away thinking “there’s something odd about that van.”
    he had NO IDEA what was odd. Just that it was odd. So he leaked the video that was marked classified.
    Whether or not the video turned out to be an indictment of the military or not is inconsequential and immaterial.
    He had no idea what it was, what the ramifications were, or what the video meant.
    The only information he was SURE OF was that the military marked it classified.

    He released it.
    If you can’t see the problem here than I don’t have to speculate any longer about the age old question:
    Uncle Al, smart guy or blowhard?

    And as for moral authority? You say he had it?
    What if I was morally against the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and leaked the information to the Japanese and the plane was shot down, and the Japanese didn’t surrender and went on to kill many more American soldiers? Suppose the tide of the war changed?
    What if I was personally opposed to the invasion of Normandy and leaked that info?

    What if I had access to classified info and I saw a top secret picture of Obama and it appeared to be a picture of him doing something illegal, and I leaked it because I had “moral authority” on my side, and it turned out my interpretation of the picture was entirely wrong, and this led to an international crisis?

    No. The info was classified. He leaked it. Whether you agreed with what was leaked or not is not material.
    He is not a hero.
    But you think so because.. well. I wont say. That info is classified.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +35

     
  21. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @Aunt Liz

    GAAHH!! He is so simplistic in his reasoning. It is maddening that THINKING CONSERVATIVES buy into his spiel.

    Thinking conservatives – and others – know the difference between “complex” and “complicated.”

    Complex: Consisting of or comprehending various parts united or connected together; formed by combination of different elements; composite, compound. Said of things, ideas, etc.

    Complicate: To combine or mix up with in a complex, intricate, or involved way.

    It is easy to mistake straightforward approaches to complex conditions that eliminate the complications as simplistic. Govt complicates, sometimes by accident but all too frequently by design to make the case that only govt can solve or otherwise deal with a situation.

    Paul has a habit of looking underneath the complications to the real situation. That’s hard to do, as it involves being conscious of what many people hold as unexamined assumptions, many of which are not quite true.

    Thumb up +3

     
  22. St. Burrolas

    December 20th, 2011

    “Paul has a habit of looking underneath the complications to the real situation.”

    If by that you mean he likes to arbitrarily interpret the rule of law. Bingo.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +18

     
  23. Unslung Weiner Hero

    December 20th, 2011

    UNCLE AL ” said “Bradley Manning exposed what needed exposing. It took a lot of courage to do what was right. I’m glad he had that courage.”

    THat’s BS. George patton woulda put him before a firing squad……which he deserves! When you join the Army you are in the employ of an outfit in which treason should not be tolerated!! Burn him!

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +24

     
  24. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @BFH – No, I am not confusing my arrogance for intelligence: I am both arrogant and intelligent. Also, that means I’m both a smart guy and a blowhard. When I’m being an arrogant blowhard I know what I’m talking about and can articulate my reasoning.

    We disagree. Fine. That calls up the question of my judgment vs yours and I’m happy to discuss that.

    Thumb up +5

     
  25. BigFurHat

    December 20th, 2011

    Aunt Liz,
    You’ve just been treated to the persnickety passive aggression version of being called an idiot… by one of the “thinking” people.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +16

     
  26. BigFurHat

    December 20th, 2011

    Al,
    I already stated my case as to why Manning had no moral authority to do what he did – he had no idea what he was looking at when he leaked the Apache video. So where does morality come into play?
    Furthermore, I went on to say that one’s own morality does not take precedence over the decisions of our military when the action being taken is debatable.

    But I guess you missed that while huffing your farts.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +27

     
  27. BigFurHat

    December 20th, 2011

    I’m also quite taken with Manning’s moral authority defense that he’s mounting – “I’m a confused gay man.”

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +28

     
  28. Chief

    December 20th, 2011

    Uncle Al

    Your generation (I’m guessing you’re one of the early end of the post WWII do nothings or a really early Boomer) fucked around with all of the bad marriages and fucked up children and general navel gazing and now, like your hero Ron Paul, you finally think you’ve shaken off the drug induced encomium and try to find your real voice (like you would know) before you finally slip off into a Depends-ensconced death rattle with quickly accompanying, and shortly thereafter ,but really fucking long long lasting ,dirt nap.

    Good luck with that late shot at thought, let alone redemption.

    Your generation bears the brunt of 97% of our ills. Take that stoddering rickety puppet Ron Paul with you on your long ride south to Hades you angry old poof.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +12

     
  29. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @Unslung Weiner Hero:

    …When you join the Army you are in the employ of an outfit in which treason should not be tolerated!

    When you join the Army you are in the employ of an outfit in which violations of the laws of war and the UCMJ should not be tolerated. But they are tolerated for political, not moral, reasons.

    (aside: I was in the Army, early 1969 till late 1971. Made E-4 in just under 6 months which is virtually impossible save for truly exceptional performance. Hon. Discharge as E-5. Been there, pal.)

    Thumb up +7

     
  30. Robert Fine

    December 20th, 2011

    As Zen master of leaving a political leadership vacuum George W. Bush has demonstrated: leave a political vacuum and it will be filled by lunatics.

    Thumb up +1

     
  31. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @BFH:

    Every member of the Armed Forces does indeed have individual moral authority, and this is recognized officially:

    Military effectiveness depends upon obedience to orders. On the other hand, the obedience of a Soldier is not the obedience of an automaton. A Soldier is a reasoning agent, obliged to respond, not as a machine, but as a person.

    United States Court of Military Appeals
    United States v. Calley, 48 C.M.R. 19, 26-27 (C.M.A. 1973).

    Thumb up +4

     
  32. Uncle Al

    December 20th, 2011

    @Chief – Guess again. You didn’t get it right the first time.

    Thumb up +3

     
  33. BigFurHat

    December 21st, 2011

    Al, does the obvious need to be pointed out?

    The breaking of the standing order of DO NOT LEAK TOP SECRET INFORMATION can only be defended if you can show how following that order is an affront to your morality. Manning would have to make the case that he is morally opposed to the concept of secrets, not what the secrets were, because he leaked thousands and thousands, and by his own admission he had no idea what the Apache video was or meant.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +14

     
  34. taudry audry

    December 21st, 2011

    Wow. A big argument here, but since I’m new to the site, I wonder how a guy who spilled classified information about OUR country could be anything but a traitor?
    He’s gay? What does that have to do with the release of classified documents to our enemy?

    Just wondering if anyone can explain that part.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +15

     
  35. taudry audry

    December 21st, 2011

    I have friends in the military, and if anyone spilled this kind of information, they’d have that guy thrown in the brig.
    How could this prick be a “hero”?

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +12

     
  36. plf5403

    December 21st, 2011

    The LIaR has blown a gasket on this one. Let’s start slowly:
    “Moreover, given the billions we spend on intelligence and technology, how is it that a rogue private could accomplish this?”
    ANSWER:
    After 9/11 a commission was formed which came to the conclusion that one of the problems with our intelligence services was that they did not share nor pool their respective information. One remedy which the State Department took was to put their classified dispatches onto the US Military’s SIPRNet (Secret Internet Protocol Router Network). One effect of this, was to allow certain military intelligence officers access to this global network of State Department raw intelligence. One such officer was PFC Bradley Manning, known as an all-sources intelligence specialist. He had been trained by the Army and was assigned to review, analyze and synthesize information from all sources to assist the Army in seeing “the true picture”. This was his job.

    “Has there been an investigation into the how of this theft? Any demotions? Firings? Anything beyond hand waving and posturing about compromising American security?”
    ANSWER:
    As a matter of fact there has. One of the first things State Department did was pull their diplomatic cables out of the SIPRNet, thereby sequestering their information again, just like pre-9/11. The Army conducted a criminal investigation, which identified PFC Manning as the suspect who provided classified information to the enemy. Additionally, a thorough administrative investigation was conducted and the senior non-commissioned officer in charge of the intelligence unit where Manning worked was recently demoted from E-8 to E-7. The demotion was warranted in part because he never forwarded his observations of erratic behavior by PFC Manning to his superior who could have pulled Manning’s access to classified material in a heartbeat. Additionally, he allowed many violations of SCIF security protocols to continue under his watch. He will never recover from that demotion. This will cost him tens of thousands of dollars in retirement pay.
    The commissioned officer in charge of SIPRNet security for the unit received and official Letter of Admonition from the commander. In the highly competitive atmosphere of officer promotions, this seemingly light punishment will probably negatively effect his chances for promotion for the rest of his career. These two examples are only ones which have been publicly reported. The Army does NOT like bad press and you can rest assured an olive-drab covered knee-jerk reaction resulted in many, many more similar career grenades being tossed during this inquiry.

    I’ve provided you some of the exact charges for which Manning is being Court Martialed for, you be the judge. Treasonous?

    Thumb up +8

     
  37. RPFreeSpeech

    December 21st, 2011

    Please…everyone…

    I am an early boomer, and I care not a damned twig for Ron Paul, though I respect his being a physician…but, I’m always interested in another’s viewpoint.

    The problem is the audio…I’ve listened and listened…and still cannot understand quite what the man is saying. Apparently, you all do, while I think he is some sort of ‘mush-mouth’.

    If, and only IF, all these Republican candidates would stop bashing each other, and put their bashings toward the Obama administration (not just Obama, but ALL the mumbledypegs who make HIS decisions for him), AHHH, wouldn’t that be UTOPIA?

    Here is actually VIDEO of this audio. It is much clearer. Go to the 4 minute mark – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soF2uIe8GPk
    -bfh

    Thumb up +2

     
  38. Jayne

    December 21st, 2011

    Awesome searing logic and common sense with that ole’ BFH sarc. humor thrown in. You make it look so easy, Fur, you’re an inspiration. And…Ron Paul gets lots of support from potheads.

    Thumb up +8

     
  39. plf5403

    December 21st, 2011

    @ Uncle Al
    “Bradley Manning exposed what needed exposing. It took a lot of courage to do what was right. I’m glad he had that courage.”

    Could you be more specific? What, exactly, are you referring to?

    Thumb up +6

     
  40. classicaliberal

    December 21st, 2011

    Is all alone lobbing truth bombs at Paultards on this video’s Youtube page.

    Thumb up +2

     
  41. Jim

    December 21st, 2011

    I’ve been out of the loop for a while. What happened to Rick Perry? Did they dig up some “Love Child” or what?

    Thumb up +9

     
  42. plf5403

    December 21st, 2011

    @ Jim

    Perry did himself no favors with this vapor lock on national TV and the progressive MSM crucified him for it.
    He needed better cliff notes.

    Thumb up +2

     
  43. BigFurHat

    December 21st, 2011

    Jim -
    Long time no see. I’ve heard amazing things about you, brother.
    I salute and commend you.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +10

     
  44. taudry audry

    December 21st, 2011

    Oh, and by the way, I think that Ron Paul is the biggest idiot I’ve ever seen in my life.
    If anyone takes that guy seriously, they are completely retarded.
    But what do I know. I’d like the person leading this country to blame the 9/11 attack on the people who committed the crime.

    Not the innocents who died from it.
    Ron Paul=Obama.
    BLAME AMERICA FIRST.
    Sick.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +10

     
  45. Mary Jane Anklestraps

    December 21st, 2011

    @Jim-

    Re: What bfh said… Did you just get back from military service? If so, thank you! And welcome back and Merry Christmas! :)

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +10

     
  46. Jarhead Cracka

    December 21st, 2011

    I spent years dealing with classified in the military. What Manning did has nothing to do with the ‘moral authority’ of a PFC. The son of a bitch committed treasonous release of classified info that he took an oath to protect. He took an oath to protect the classified info he was privy to, that was ABOVE AND BEYOND the oath he took as a soldier. He violated THAT oath. I spent 8 damned years as the Sqdrn Security Manager protecting classified, and shitbirds like Manning need to spend the rest of his life in prison.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +14

     
  47. Jarhead Cracka

    December 21st, 2011

    Paulbots love to flout Dr Ron Paul’s Military history as a flight surgeon. Well, his defense of this shitbird Bradley Manning tells me Dr paul doesn’t know shit about protecting classified, and the classification/declass authority that goes with it. Did Dr Paul treat B-52 crews as a Flight Surgeon, needing to protect the info of Nuclear crews? It sure doesn’t sound like it to me.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +10

     
  48. Lightspeedsnail

    December 21st, 2011

    Right on Jarhead, only I disagree with you on one thing. He doesn’t deserve to live another day. Manning should have been tried and taken out and shot at dawn. End of story.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +11

     
  49. Jarhead Cracka

    December 21st, 2011

    When you research PFC Bradley Manning ( a PFC busted down from Spec 4), I am amazed that the US Army continued to allow his access to classified. He was trained as an Intel analyst; he KNEW the damage he was doing by releasing volumes of classified against the oath he took. his defense is bullshit. He deserves life in prison or a rope.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +15

     
  50. BigFurHat

    December 21st, 2011

    The youtube comment thread is indeed hilarious.

    One joker is saying that Manning was only doing what he thought was the right thing to do.

    Then the same clown says, panicking and in the corner, “what are you a lawyer, only interested in the letter of the law!!??!’

    THIS FROM A PAULBOT!

    You see, this are not principles we are dealing with here. This is scrambling at all costs to try and fit their round peg into the Paul square hole, because they have a psycho-sexual mancrush on this guy.
    The fact that Paul is not adhering to the letter of the law with his opinion on the Bradley Manning case shows that Paul has the ability to abandon his vaunted principles in lieu of just doing whatever the frig Paul feels like.

    Methinks a Paul presidency would be less an exercise in Constitutional Construction and more of a House of Paul.

    Noteworthy Comment Thumb up +12

     
  51. Dale

    December 21st, 2011

    Uncle Al,how long have you been a Fan of RP? Was there something that happened where you changed your mindset or were you a fan from day one? I have been reading as much info on RP as I can and I still don’t see the attraction.

    Thumb up +6

     
  52. How the Grinch Stole Kwanza

    December 21st, 2011

     
  53. Czar of Defenestration

    December 21st, 2011

    RE: your “House of Paul” remark, bfh –

    That is what inevitably happens to all cowards/tyrants. They may dress their actions with different words, but reality forces them to behave in the same pattern.

    The pity is indeed the naive followers who are sadly bewildered each and every time it happens.

    Thumb up +5

     
  54. Snorkdoodle Whizbang

    December 21st, 2011

    Al-

    “When you join the Army you are in the employ of an outfit in which violations of the laws of war and the UCMJ should not be tolerated. But they are tolerated for political, not moral, reasons.”

    I was in too. Don’t piss down my neck and tell me its raining. You know as well as I that soldiers are not bound to follow unlawful orders. In fact, it is their duty to object to unlawful orders… it is not their duty to commit treason. And that is what Manning did, pure and simple. He violated his oath, he violated the trust of not just his comrades, but of the country and constitution he swore to serve.

    Oh, and a soldier is not an employee. It denigrates the personal sacrifices they make every day in order to serve and protect us.

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  55. BigFurHat

    December 21st, 2011

    The difference between what Al is describing and what Manning did is that Manning did not go over all the material he handed over.
    He just grabbed and gave away.
    I’m not quite sure what Manning was morally opposed to, perhaps the hero is morally opposed to indiscriminate caches of info, and whatever might be in them be damned?

    That’s the equivalent of a spy clicking his tiny camera at whatever he can point it at, not knowing if what he got is “good enough” to topple the enemy.

    Thumb up +8

     
  56. Czar of Defenestration

    December 21st, 2011

     
  57. boobUS

    December 21st, 2011

    No one can deny neo-tards are intellectually challenged and suffer from cognitive dissonance.
    They decry big government and the police state, yet beg for more sans any protection….I guess for these closet progs no does indeed mean yes and date rape is their best interest.

    http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2011/12/21/the-madness-of-adam-yoshida/
    The Madness of Adam Yoshida
    Justin Raimondo, December 21, 2011
    Print This | Share This | Comment | Antiwar Forum

    Amid an avalanche of attacks on antiwar Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul, the latest (as of midnight on Tuesday) is one in the comically-named “American Thinker,” a neocon web site for the intellectually challenged, which runs a piece by Adam Yoshida on “The Madness of Ron Paul.” The real irony here is that if anyone is an example of madness run amok it is Senor Yoshida, who wrote the following:

    “Can any rational person deny that Michael Moore is a traitor? … Michael Moore should be made an example of. During the Revolutionary War, loyalists were tarred and feathered and sometimes killed. … In short, during virtually every major American war, subversion, sedition, and treason have been harshly dealt with and civil liberties have been curbed. This is the way things ought to be. This is the way that things must be.

    “Vietnam was lost both because seditionists were allowed to run free and because the government failed to take proper action to curb them. Today Kent State is memorialized as a great tragedy because a few traitors (or those stupid enough to stand near them) were killed when, in fact, one of the great tragedies of the war was that there were obviously too few Kent States.”

    This is what passes for “conservatism” these days: the Madness of Adam Yoshida.

    ”This is the way things ought to be. This is the way that things must be.” Spooky. Scary. And wacko. The man is off his meds — or maybe there aren’t meds powerful enough to counteract that kind of psychosis.

    Thumb up +1

     
  58. Diann

    December 21st, 2011

    HI JIM!!!! (waving furiously!)

    Thumb up +7

     
  59. boobUS

    December 21st, 2011

    The military hates Ru Paul and they damn well show it!

    http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2011/07/20/ron-paul-campaign-raises-most-donations-from-military/

    If you booger eating neo-tards get your way, then all I can say is happy four more years of Obama, bitchez.

    http://lewrockwell.com/orig/keller23.1.html
    So unless you Establishment Republicans are ready to call active duty military personnel uninformed or cowardly, you would do well to pay attention to this fact, and consider that it is you who are out of the mainstream. Ignore the caucus results at your peril, because Mitt “Obama-lite” Romney and Newt “Freddie-Mac” Gingrich are unelectable against Obama.

    Thumb up +1

     
  60. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @Uncle Al ~ “…On the other hand, the obedience of a Soldier is not the obedience of an automaton. A Soldier is a reasoning agent, obliged to respond, not as a machine, but as a person.”

    I hate to be redundant, and Lord knows I don’t want to get in the middle of a BFH VS Uncle Al tizzy, but Al is just plain WRONG!

    Soldiers take an Oath. They do not merely fill out an application. And their oath is to God, country and the service… In That Order. If it goes against those princles, a soldier has not only the right but the duty to object. But Manning did not object to something he witnessed. The 23 year-old soldier made a seriously, potentially dangerous, decision that he was not qualified to make based purely on an emotional assumption.

    This is from WikiPedia (not affiliated with WikiLeaks, the organization Manning leaked the info to):

    “Manning had been assigned in October 2009 to a unit of the 10th Mountain Division, based near Baghdad. There he had access to the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network (SIPRNet), used by the United States government to transmit classified information,… The leaked material is said to have included 250,000 U.S. diplomatic cables; footage of a July 2007 Baghdad airstrike; and footage of the May 2009 Granai airstrike in Afghanistan.” ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

    Manning could not have veiwed, much less assessed intelligently, 250,000 pieces of intel in order to make a rational ‘Objection by Oath’ to “crimes” committed. Rather, I believe, he witnessed two videos, of two different airstrikes, in two different countries that happened two years apart,… and was appalled.

    Nevermind that “Friendly Fire/Collateral Damage” scenarios happen in all wars and he was only watching a grainy black & white image. He never spoke with anyone of the soldiers he accuses of basicly “murder”. And yet he, a twenty-three year old “Intelligence Analyst” (clerk) only two years out of ‘Boot Camp’, played judge and jury of his fellow soldiers: men whom he pledged to honor and protect in his Oath!

    Had Manning objected officially, been rebuked then taken it to a court marshall where he would refer the the intel, I would say he was doing what he believed was his duty. But instead, like the confused boy from a ‘broken home’ who joined the Army for all the wrong reasons, he hopped on the internet and reveled in his self-impotance.

    Now, Al, if you and all the people at http://www.bradleymanning.org want to make a martyr out of this little fop tin soldier, help yourself. But I just buried an 86 year old Patriot and veteren of two wars and two branches of the military. So I’ll be sending my “Bradley Manning Support Network” donations to the “Wounded Warriors” in my dad’s name.

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

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  61. Lady in Red

    December 21st, 2011

    I wish I knew more about the WikiLeaks situation. Michael Moore’s defense in the beginning put me off Manning and Assange. And, I rather supported the BFH colony here.

    I’m unable to defend Manning, Assange or Ron Paul adequately.

    When the IOTW jeering denizens begin screaming “idiot” and “nutjob” however, I get reflexively cautious.

    Sadly, The IOTW Mob has contributed nothing to further knowledge or understanding about the incident. As usual.

    So I have an empty check box “Need More Information” I should work on: WikiLeaks, Manning, Assange, understanding Ron Paul’s position.

    As BFH put it yesterday: RON PAUL MUST BE STOPPED AT ALL COSTS. Ok. Why don’t you just shoot him and be done with the need to destroy his character, intelligence and integrity? Keep it simple. …Lady in Red

    PS: To the PaulBots: As I mentioned, IOTW is *not* good pickin’ for your candidate. These folk has been simmering in a broth that make them most conducive to an Ayatollah Bachmann, for instance. Ron Paul is much too much outside the lines of their thinking.

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  62. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    Actually, I meant to say “… he reveled in his self-IMPORTANCE.” But impotance(sic) works just as well.

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  63. WhiteFalcon1

    December 21st, 2011

    Uncle Al:
    As I understand this Manning thing is he was doing this duty while waiting for a Article 15 hearing and probable discharge about some of his other fucked up behaviors and shitty attitudes in regards to his sensitivities, sexuality and relating to other troops….how a retard like him was ever exposed to the info he outed is far beyond me and something that also has to be dealt with, no doubt, but what he did was far beyond wrong and IS treason!
    He swore an oath to protect this country, not decide, while in a fit over his boyfriend, to out classified information that got a lot of people up all over the world, fucked up!
    I had a classified/ eyes only clearance in the army and there are many things I saw and know to this day, I don’t necessarily agree with seeing, knowing, or doing, but they were done just the same as its what I agreed to…its not my place to decide right or wrong, moral or immoral, I LOVE my country and if my orders were to do something I didn’t agree with, Ive said it here before and I’ll say it again, if hooking someone up to a HUM/V starter coil and turning the key is going to protect my men and my country, and accomplish my mission, someones IS going to get fucked up! Saws, cutting torches, cable cutters, I don’t give a shit…you know ‘something’, I need to know it to do my job and protect my men and this country and I’m know it…how and for how long is entirely up to you!!! The whole ideal of military is force and using it to have your way…I did and I don’t have any issues sleeping with what I did…if you don’t want your ass kicked, don’t declare war on my country!
    In my day in the machine, Manning would have had a serious training “accident” or probably fragged for what he did…we had our own way of weeding out the weaklings and he would have been decisively weeded out! You don’t swear an oath to defend this country then betray this country and the men and women who serve it in whatever capacity in the next breathe…not and still claim a right to breathe!

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  64. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @Lady in Red ~ “I wish I knew more about the WikiLeaks situation.”

    Hey LIR. I’m not sure about your laptop, but when I google wikileaks on mine, I get 109,000,000 hits in 0.08 seconds.

    Sooo…, I’m just saying anyone as opinionated as you are here at IOTW surely does a modicum of research before posting, right? I mean I can be a real prick with some of my posts, but I usually get my fucking ducks all in a row before serious commentary. Don’t you?

    Sorry. That was just my daily “smug-as-a-bug” comment.

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  65. Jayne

    December 21st, 2011

    Copying plf5403 ’cause I’d really like to know Al’s answer to this:

    @ Uncle Al
    “Bradley Manning exposed what needed exposing. It took a lot of courage to do what was right. I’m glad he had that courage.”

    Could you be more specific? What, exactly, are you referring to?”

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  66. SgtZim

    December 21st, 2011

    Al, i am disappoint.

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  67. Czar of Defenestration

    December 21st, 2011

    This is a good example of when libertarians seems to ally moreso with anarchists.

    No thanks.

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  68. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @Uncle Al “(aside: I was in the Army, early 1969 till late 1971. Made E-4 in just under 6 months which is virtually impossible save for truly exceptional performance. Hon. Discharge as E-5. Been there, pal.)”

    Well Al, you served more time than me. I’ll give you that much. And I guess your superior ability to soar through the ranks is to be admired. Even by guys like my late father who served on the WWII Liberty ship SS Eleazar Wheelock as an anti-aircraft gunner manning a 22mm. After a torpedo nearly sunk their ship he and another gunner spent three days treading water. But he never got a promotion for it.

    And even though he lead a machine gun squad, including south Korean scouts, for the U.S. Army in the early 1950′s, it took him nearly three years to attain the rank of E5 that you so easily earned in just two years.

    But eventually, by 1967, he was “given” the rank of E8 (Mst.Sgt.) and served as a drill instructor and small arms expert at Ft. Benning, GA. until 1967. He trained many of young men to fight in Vietnam.

    Say Al. Where and when again did you say you served. Exactly? 1969 til 1971? Army? What boot camp? Where in Vietnam did you go? Because anyone serving in the Army, especially someone soaring through the ranks as you did, certainly was ‘in country’. Right?

    I mean even though you moved so quickly from E1 to E4, which my dad said only happened for “cocksucking, brown-nosing little pencil pushers”, he never met you! Right?

    You’re probably the exception. That’s why such an exceptional and successful retiree, such as yourself, spends so much time in IOTW telling all us kids about your heroism. Right? Well, you didn’t exactly tell us anything about actual heroism. Just that you really advanced fast in the two, long but apparently ‘interesting’ years of your military ‘career’.

    But, I digress. I’m sorry if I’ve misjudged you Al. Perhaps we all do owe you debt of gratitude, and my snarky comments are out of line. It’s just that, well… my old man never bragged about his service or his advancement. The two stories I told of his service he only told me when I prodded him to just before the end of his life. I insisted it would be a great legacy for the grandchildren he would never know.

    Now, that’s my take on it.

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  69. Aunt Liz

    December 21st, 2011

    Fur – “persnickety passive aggression version of being called an idiot” – what a great phrase! I’m going to have to use that one in the future – if you don’t mind! I find that it’s neither too complicated, nor too complex for my feeble brain to comprehend! ;)

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  70. Lady in Red

    December 21st, 2011

    It sounds like you hail from a brave family, GeoFraz.

    Uncle Al’s military career, nor that of your father, is the point, now.

    We need to parse what Ron Paul might be trying to say — and why — about WikiLeaks.

    I don’t think Ron Paul is a fool, nor do I think he would ever want to put the lives our military (or intelligence operations) in harm’s way.

    BFH believes Ron Paul is an idiot who MUST BE STOPPED AT ALL COSTS. I suspect more complexity, but…

    I’m very sorry about your father. …Lady in Red

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  71. St. Burrolas

    December 21st, 2011

    Wait, are we all sure Dr. Pussy wasn’t calling manning a Greek sammich?

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  72. Jarhead Cracka

    December 21st, 2011

    I could spout off my rank progression like Uncle Al did, but that is NOT relevant. What IS relevant is that I spent years dealing with classified, and being the Unit’s expert in protecting that classified. Manning the shitbird had numerous discipline problems, resulting in reduction in rank. How he was allowed continued access to SIPRnet amazes me. At least his supervision paid for this horrendous oversight as PLF5403 pointed out. Life in prison or a rope- this guy was as damaging as CWO John Walker USN.

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  73. joeclark77

    December 21st, 2011

    It just goes to show that libertarians are not, and have never been, reliable conservatives. Uncle Al, for example, quacks like a conservative, but next November he’ll be voting for Obama just like all the other Paulnuts.

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  74. Blue Highway

    December 21st, 2011

    My first post. Uncle Al, you are intellectually twisted to the point of being dangerous. But it was your dishonest self-aggrandizing comment about your service that prompted me to call you out. I entered the Army in 1969 also. At the time it took a minimum of four months to finish Basic and AIT training. Basic = Private E-1. AIT = Private E-2. Once reaching a duty station, IF you were in a combat theater, promotion to Private E-3 was automatic, otherwise it could take some time. So we’re talking a minimum of roughly 5 months to make E-3,assuming you took leave before reporting. You claim to have made E-4 in 5 months plus change. I went to Vietnam and made E-4 two months after arrival, extremely fast even for Nam. What all this tells me is that you’re full of shit.

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  75. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @Lady in Red ~ Your condolences are appreciated.

    That aside, I never thought this was about Al, I just wanted to answer his insulting drivel about what miltary service means and what it doesn’t mean.

    “We need to parse what Ron Paul might be trying to say — and why — about WikiLeaks.”

    Now before we do that, LIR. Let us discuss your curious use of the word “parse”. I’ll be honest. Though I thought I knew what it meant, I had to look it up to be sure. Not exactly a word that most people of normal intellect use regularly. More likely the word of a MENSA member or, someone thumbing through Roget’s just to impress the tea party lot at IOTW, ‘cuz you’un all know we’un just uh buncha ignant lot’, Right?

    But, I digress.

    It seems that parse, a verb, can be transitive or intransitive and yet your usage is confusing.

    “We” the the subject, and “parse”, the (transitive)verb, I understand. But in order for “parse” to be a trasitive verb there must be a direct object. Is “say” supposed to be the direct object? Instead of: “We need to parse what Ron Paul might be trying to say — and why — about WikiLeaks.” Wouldn’t a better sentence structure be:

    “Instead of… shouldn’t we be parsing the policies of Ron Paul and what his message is?”

    I’m sorry. Maybe I’m wrong after all, I just looked the word up a few minutes ago. You’re the MENSA member. You tell me, Lady in Red.

    And after you figure that one out, we’ll chit about what Paul is really saying, and why and the big mystery of ‘Wikileaks’ that you cannot seem to grasp.

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  76. Anne

    December 21st, 2011

    Uncle Al, I’m sure that your comments make perfect sense to you and to a few, a very you others here. But they won’t make sense to any rational person.

    In other news ……

    Ron Paul for POTUS? Yeah, right. HA HA HA HA HA The only thought more scary would be who that eccentric, little Marian would appoint as his Secretary Of State, Secretary Of Defense and CIA Director. (shudder)

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  77. Anne

    December 21st, 2011

    Martian, nor Marian – Argh!!!!

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  78. [...] This clip has been making the rounds last night and today, but it’s not new — it’s actually from a clip featured by Wikileaks, for obvious reasons, last January. Still, it’s not as if the parameters of the Bradley Manning case have changed significantly in the last eleven months, or at least not in any way that mitigates Manning’s alleged crimes. The enlisted soldier transmitted a vast trove of classified government communications, primarily diplomatic cables but also some internal military information, and sent it to Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks. Jazz Shaw has a good update on the case on the front page today, for those who haven’t followed it closely. Bear in mind that Ron Paul wants to become Commander in Chief, which raises all sorts of questions about how a President Paul would safeguard classified information: So if we have an American citizen, and he’s willing to take it, uh, take the consequences and practice civil disobedience, say “This is what our government’s doing!” Should he be locked up and in prison? Or should we, you know, see him as a political hero? Maybe he is a true patriot who reveals what’s going on in government. [...]

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  79. Lady in Red

    December 21st, 2011

    No Mensa member GeoFraz! Thanks for the compliment. smile…blush.

    (My husband played at Mensa, when he was a kid, but… lotta weird folk in Mensa! smile…. Bob could do the NY Times Sunday Crossword in ink in about 15 minutes, though. And he was an engineer, a scientist, not, really, a wordsmith. So, I have seen “smart” up close. Mostly, in my experience, the most smart, the best smart are more nice than anything else. Bob could explain string theory to a 10 year old. He was sooooo smart you didn’t know how smart he was. Like your Dad, I miss Bob. His birthday was last Saturday and our wedding anniversary’s on Friday. sigh.)

    But, I digress.

    I meant nothing more than figure out what’s really going on, peel back the onion layers. That’s all I meant.

    *I* start with the premise Ron Paul is *not* stupid. Folk like BFH, now, are trying to paint him as such. I can accept that from BFH and jeer along with the crowd, or I can dig.

    I don’t know that WikiLeaks and Manning are my shtick, but I confess to feeling confused: things seems to be one way, but my mind tells me the puzzle pieces aren’t fitting together well. It doesn’t make sense.

    (The first time I experienced intellectual dissonance was in the aftermath of the OKC bombing. The media, the entire world, was saying one thing, but the more I dug — and trusted my own mind, admittedly, reluctantly, at first — the stronger I became. Truth is sometimes harder to find than it should be.) ….Lady in Red

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  80. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @LIR ~ You are either a kind but foolish old soul, or a cunning piece of shit and quite frankly, I believe you to be the later.

    But I’m not sure which and I’m not going to waste my time trying to figure it out. If you really believe all that you say, if you really believe in Paul, why come here?

    Long before Paul was a contender, you came here to IOTW. And, even now though you know that no one here will be swayed by this “Timothy Leary” clone, you still insist. Why?

    Do you think we are all just kids who don’t understand yet, or simple morons who need LIR to enlighten us? I don’t know how old you are be I’m 45. And I’ve lived just long enough to know who I want to vote for.

    So, unless you’re on the political fence and are seeking guidance from people from center to near far right of center, you should go away and leave with what little dignity remains of your persona @ IOTW.

    Then you could spend more time at Paul sites: 9/11 Truthers, Illuminati and DaVinci Code disciples, JFK/Oswald/grassy knoll conventioneers, Roswell aliens and Bigfoot (Who is real, my cousin Earl saw him wake boarding on the Chatahoochie River in 2004).

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  81. plf5403

    December 21st, 2011

    A failure of leadership, among other things could have prevented this disclosure. I’m still waiting to hear what exactly RuPaul and Uncle Al feel was released which elevates Manning from treasonous skunk to unalloyed hero???
    Had the bomb plot to assassinate Hitler worked in WWII, those disloyal officers would have been heroes for all the lives they would have saved. What exactly is the corollary here?

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  82. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @LIR ~ Do you just say shit to stay relevant in IOTW?!

    “(The first time I experienced intellectual dissonance was in the aftermath of the OKC bombing. The media, the entire world, was saying one thing, but the more I dug — and trusted my own mind, admittedly, reluctantly, at first — the stronger I became. Truth is sometimes harder to find than it should be.) ….Lady in Red

    When you “dug” what we all didn’t dig what did you find? Jimmy Hoffa? The Linburgh Baby or maybe D.B.Cooper?!! Is Geraldo Rivera gonna open a vault and your conscience is gonna jump out and appologize for years of gullibility?

    Nope. Didn’t think so.

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  83. Lady in Red

    December 21st, 2011

    I’m not here to convince you of anything, GeoFraz.

    You be biggie boy.

    The folk here are, mostly, evangelical hypocrites I don’t much cotton to. Ron Paul is the least of it. The forced birthers are the real problem.

    I share what I know and what I think. I like BFH’s photoshopping. Sometimes the smugness gets me.

    That is all. …Lady in Red

    PPS: The OKC bombing was a BATF/FBI sting operation gone awry. McVeigh was a bit player in it all.

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  84. geofraz

    December 21st, 2011

    @Lady in Red “PPS: The OKC bombing was a BATF/FBI sting operation gone awry. McVeigh was a bit player in it all.”

    Yes. yes. That make lady feel all better about Holder/Fastnfurious now don’t it? There, there. It’s okay. It’ll all be allright. PapaDoc Paul gonna make it all true for you and all the good little atheist/911truther/illuminati/Roswell/Occupiers!

    Right?!

    And, not for you but for the record, I respect Judeo-Christian ideology though I am not a Christian, nor Jew, nor Muslim or Buddhist. I have my own relationship with god and there is nothing that the Jews nor Christians in America do that threatens that, in my opinion. Muslims however are a different story.

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  85. Another typically noticed error is to generate a individual profile with one particular e mail and then generate a organization page with a second e mail log-in simply because they will not want their Facebook buddies to know they are associated with the company.

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  86. Aunt Liz

    December 21st, 2011

    @Blue Highway – not that I’m the Welcome Wagon – but noted that it was your first post – and I liked what you had to say – so Welcome! :)

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  87. Lady in Red

    December 21st, 2011

    That’s nice, Aunt Liz!

    Good night. …Lady in Red

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  88. RosalindJ

    December 21st, 2011

    I’m not about to follow the discussion down the rabbit hole. Only here to comment that I did not know that RP has also endorsed Cynthia McKinney..who lost to Hank Islands-be-Tipping Johnson.

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  89. Occam's Tool

    December 21st, 2011

    Dear Al:

    Private Manning had plenty of legitimate ways of making his complaint, including contacting Ron Paul’s congressional office. Instead, he released classified data inappropriately. End of story.

    Incidentally, thank you for your service as an enlisted man. But the former head of rule of law training at the Army War College, Tom Kratman, who is a friend of mine, does not agree with you on Manning. I think more of Lt. Col. Kratman, JD’s opinion on military legal matters than yours. Sorry. Putting our troops at risk in a data dump to a hostile foreign national is a very stupid move.

    Arrogant you may be, but this Mensan doesn’t view you as very bright, and I snagged my MD at 25.

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  90. Millertime

    December 21st, 2011

    I am late on this one

    Ron Paul is way off on Manning, Uncle Al sees it his way; no need to pile on. But I disagree. Manning was not being a hero, he deserves the death penalty.

    About military rank – MOS and units assignments determine speed of promotion (read it again). If you are a cook or truck driver there arent many promotions. If you are infantry, scout or engineer ranks come fast if you ace every test, take on all duty and prove your worthy. I went from E-1 to E4 in 16 months, E4P in 27 months. Thats one of the few benefits of front line duty.

    Ft Leonard Wood Basic/AIT. 12B10.
    3rd Armored CAV Ft Bliss,Texas.
    Range/training time S/E New Mexico,
    2 separate trips to NTC Ft Irwin,
    and Germany (Reforger 88)

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  91. Jayne

    December 22nd, 2011

    Ya know the real horror here is what it says about our military. Between that Muslim who shot guys at Fort Hood, was it, and the gang banger thugs who have been allowed to infest the forces, that Paul is 1st in military donations and Obama second I’m thinking we’ve got a big systemic problem.

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  92. Daniel B

    December 22nd, 2011

    Most of this blog and its comments are a pretty outstanding example of simplistic groupthink.

    “Military effectiveness depends upon obedience to orders. On the other hand, the obedience of a Soldier is not the obedience of an automaton. A Soldier is a reasoning agent, obliged to respond, not as a machine, but as a person. ”

    But that isn’t how it works in practice.

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  93. BigFurHat

    December 22nd, 2011

    Gee. I know I’m not a mathematician and all, but maybe you can calculate the odds that a conservative website would have conservatives discussing conservative things in the conservative comments section?

    When you use phrases like simplistic groupthink, in this context, another phrase comes to my mind – singular stupidity.

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  94. Anne

    December 23rd, 2011

    Ron Paul endorsed Cynthia McKinney in 2008???

    I never read or heard that before. I’m not a
    fan of that eccentric little Martian. But I’m
    skeptical of that assertion, especially since
    he has been accused of being a “racist”, too.

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  95. alex

    December 23rd, 2011

    Good for Ron Paul. Our government has done some f-ed up shit. Responsibility should take precedent over any bullshit policy. It’s not treason to out wrongs! And if it is, then it’s time for revolution.

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  96. plf5403

    December 24th, 2011

    Yes, RuPaul endorsed Cynthia McKinney. If that doesn’t put a question in your mind about his judgement, nothing will! Sound Judgement?

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  97. Zilla

    December 24th, 2011

     
  98. Anne

    December 29th, 2011

    What does Ron Paul hope to gain with all of his vicious, incessant attack ads on TV against Newt Gingrich. Paul is a menace, a detriment and his malevolence has become creepy. I’m not too thrilled with his son either. They’re a pair of crackpots, imo.

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